There are two things we KNOW to be true: 1) it’s hard to make and keep friends as you get older and 2) it’s nearly impossible to be happy without friends.
From your local hang-out peeps to your shared-interest [book/bike/kayak/fitness/whatevs] club to your bury-the-body-bestie, knowing who is—as well as what makes—a “good” friend is a life skill every woman should have, especially women in midlife.
How do you find them? How do you keep them? Is there value in “superficial” friendships? Why does it hurt so much when a friend disappoints or worse, betrays you? When should you let a friend go? When should you fight like hell to keep one?
We get into all these questions and more in today’s episode so grab your favorite hang-with-your-crew beverage and join us as we get clear about finding, keeping, and celebrating one of the most rewarding relationships known to humankind: friendship.
Stasha’s cocktail: El Capitan
Add all ingredients to mixing glass with ice. Stir for 20 seconds. Strain into coupe glass and garnish with a lemon twist.
(FYI-Pisco is a Peruvian brandy)
Cheryl’s cocktail: shot of Milago Tequila with Lime juice
Very smooth Tequila and easy to drink.
Good articles:
Decades of research shows it is almost impossible to be happy without friends.
A lack of meaningful friendships and support in midlife and beyond can be particularly difficult, leading to intense loneliness, and poor physical and mental health.
7 Signs of a True Friend
Midlife Friendship Key to a Longer, Healthier Life
The Best Friends Can Do Nothing For You
Aristotle’s definition/layers of friends:
There are two things we KNOW to be true: 1) it’s hard to make and keep friends as you get older and 2) it’s nearly impossible to be happy without friends.
From your local hang-out peeps to your shared-interest [book/bike/kayak/fitness/whatevs] club to your bury-the-body-bestie, knowing who is—as well as what makes—a “good” friend is a life skill every woman should have, especially women in midlife.
How do you find them? How do you keep them? Is there value in “superficial” friendships? Why does it hurt so much when a friend disappoints or worse, betrays you? When should you let a friend go? When should you fight like hell to keep one?
We get into all these questions and more in today’s episode so grab your favorite hang-with-your-crew beverage and join us as we get clear about finding, keeping, and celebrating one of the most rewarding relationships known to humankind: friendship.
Stasha’s cocktail: El Capitan
Add all ingredients to mixing glass with ice. Stir for 20 seconds. Strain into coupe glass and garnish with a lemon twist.
(FYI-Pisco is a Peruvian brandy)
Cheryl’s cocktail: shot of Milago Tequila with Lime juice
Very smooth Tequila and easy to drink.
Good articles:
Decades of research shows it is almost impossible to be happy without friends.
A lack of meaningful friendships and support in midlife and beyond can be particularly difficult, leading to intense loneliness, and poor physical and mental health.
7 Signs of a True Friend
Midlife Friendship Key to a Longer, Healthier Life
The Best Friends Can Do Nothing For You
Aristotle’s definition/layers of friends:
Stasha Boyd 00:01
Hi there, I'm Stasha.
Cheryl Stuller 00:03
I'm Cheryl.
Stasha Boyd 00:05
And between us we
Cheryl Stuller 00:05
have four kids,
Stasha Boyd 00:07
three businesses,
Cheryl Stuller 00:08
two husbands and one goal:
Stasha Boyd 00:09
To get to The Point of the Matter. I think the main thing about friendships for me is, number one, especially for women in our age. Understand that it's, that it's an ebb and flow. There's there's, it's great to have a lot of peripheral friends. I think it makes life richer, I think it makes life more fun. You know, not everyone has to be an intimate. But there are these different levels between good acquaintance and you know, ride or die, bury the body bitch. I mean, there's there's room there. And that's fine.
Cheryl Stuller 00:45
If something is meaningful to you in a relationship, stick with that. Stick with that person, keep reaching out, even if they are not in a place where they can reach back out to you. They've heard it, it's never a bad thing to reach out to somebody and be there for them.
Stasha Boyd 01:03
Recording in progress, Cheryl, hello. How's your week going?
Cheryl Stuller 01:08
Hi Stasha, it was an interesting week. How was your week?
Stasha Boyd 01:13
I gotta tell you, we actually got, we had kind of a working kind of weekend plus we ended, Friday was the end of alcohol free September. So we hit October running. Made up for lost time. Let me tell yah. And that's like, on a good note, and a bad note. The good side of it was, you know, saw some friends and some people that we've been kind of, you know, not seeing so much. On a bad note, it was sort of like, okay, there was a reason why we decided to like chill out for a bit let's not fall back into the bad habits. So that was kind of our main thing. And, but no, it was a good time. And we got, we finally got my room, my TV room, the curtains and the part of that redecorating is almost completely done now. I'm so excited.
Cheryl Stuller 01:56
That's awesome. I did see that. That's great. I'm trying to stick to the just drinking socially and not drinking at home by myself because that can get really sketchy. So, that's my kind of commitment. So I'm really working on that. And I really have a specific focus on getting upper body, more upper body strength. So I'm kind of focusing on that with CrossFit and doing some extra workouts so that's been really good and tiring and sore. I'm very sore, right now.
Stasha Boyd 02:28
Well, you're also doing this challenge you're doing like the the 21 day burpee challenge or something.
Cheryl Stuller 02:32
Well, it's for the month of October. Yeah, by the way, if you want to do, it's 25 burpees a day with the American Cancer Society. And of course, I lost my dad to Glioblastoma. So I'm doing that in honor of him. And yes, you can raise money for that. So that's what I'm doing, 25 burpees a day plus all the other stuff I'm doing. It's like a job right now!
Stasha Boyd 02:59
Burpees are really not my thing. Not my thing I need to stress that. I am but I am doing my own thing I've added back into like a I'm doing, I used to do like a countdown thing where I would do a countdown of push ups every day. A countdown of sit ups every day and a countdown of like leg presses, leg lifts and whatever. And I'm doing that I've added that back into my calendar days for my checkoffs and doing those five days a week. So in addition to my walking and you know, swimming or whatever else I can get into. I've added a few of those things back in. Oh quickly before we move on drink of the day. Mine is a little different. In the process of cleaning out a bunch of crap because I had to get it out of my life and out of my house. I discovered a bottle of something called Don Benedicto. Pisco, Pisco. I don't know how you pronounce it, but it I looked it up but I never heard of this. It's an old liquor called Pisco or Pisco. And it's a Peruvian brandy. So I looked up some recipes and I found one called an El Capitan. They only make this stuff in Peru and so I'm trying this little El Capitan Peruvian brandy thing. Wow, we'll have to see how you're acting by the end of the podcast. They do say it's strong so there's that.
Cheryl Stuller 04:11
That's what I mean. Yeah, you don't mess with the Peruvians on on their alcohol.
Stasha Boyd 04:17
No, no, they're hardcore. Alright, so what's yours? Where ya at?
Cheryl Stuller 04:22
Well, I would like to give a little shout out to a good friend of mine, Elena who listens religiously number one. And any kind of challenge that we do like this. She's always up for doing it. So she's doing this challenge with me even though we're at two different CrossFit gyms. So we're texting each other all the time. Did you get them in, did you do them? And I am doing so thank you Elena for being such a good you know, participant and supporter and I am doing milagro tequila and I just got a little shot of it.
Stasha Boyd 04:55
Nice. I do like to tequila it's very tasty, but you're a no salt girl. So you're not doing the thing where you're like do the salt, and the lime,
Cheryl Stuller 05:02
No salt, you know, I've had a little bit of lime juice in it to give it a little bit of flavor. But other than that, it's just a little shot glass of tequila.
Stasha Boyd 05:11
Got you. Alright, so here we are ready to get into the topic. So tell us about today's topic, Cheryl.
Cheryl Stuller 05:17
We're talking about friendships, and how how friendships are so important at any age. But also at the age that we are when life partners are changing. You know, deaths are happening, divorces, separations, people moving, all of those things, kind of contribute to a shift in our friendships, our relationships. And at the age that we are, and we're looking towards the rocking chairs, we want people in our lives that we can count on, and that are going to be there for us and having that emotional connection. Yeah, that is so important for us as humans.
Stasha Boyd 06:02
And to me, that's one of the reasons I think it's so important for me personally, is you know, I've struggled with making friendships over my lifetime, I mean, things have gone, come and go and whatnot. But I was reading, doing the research this, there is this one article, and I'll link to it in our show notes. But basically, it talks about how essentially, decades of research have really shown that it is almost impossible to be happy without friends. And not even just like the loneliness aspect if you don't have communication and that type of thing. But just to be able to be fully happy in your life, even and that has nothing to do with being an introvert or an extrovert, or the number of friends or whatever. But we have this deep need this deep need as human beings to feel like we are heard, seen and understood. And if it's one person, or 10 people or however many people it is for you, I think that is the quality of life, especially as we're moving through middle age. And as we get older, it just gets harder to make to meet new friends and to maintain older ones. But it's something you got to just really focus your attention on, you've got to make an effort.
Cheryl Stuller 07:09
Well, and let's talk about that seen and heard thing. That's that emotional connection that that you can get with an intimate partner. But if you don't have that in your life, and in addition to having an intimate partner, it's always great to have somebody that you can be yourself with, number one, and that you know that no matter what, they have your best interests at heart, they want you to succeed, and they have your back. To me, that's one of the most important things about a relationship are those three things.
Stasha Boyd 07:43
And that's an important distinction to make. We're not talking about spouses right now. I mean, this is, this is important. I love my spouse, I love my boy, he and I are great friends, we work together, etc. But sometimes we want to take that specific relationship and set it aside. This is really about friendships, about people that you know, the different levels of it. And almost I saw this other article, and I might need to go back and find it and put a link to it in the show notes as well. But it talks about, you know, what if we had a society that was based around our friendships, rather than around marriages, and divorces, if we were focusing on this larger swath of people with different levels and layers of intimacy, as opposed to trying to make one person be all things all the time.
Cheryl Stuller 08:26
Right, exactly. And expanding that network is really important. Because what if something happens to that intimate partnership that you have, and you haven't had friends outside of that circle, and not only are you going through this hard experience, but you don't have anybody to fall back on that has your back and that you can talk to you know, it's great to have a therapist, and that's a whole different relationship. But we're talking about somebody like my friend, Suzanne, um, you know, I'm mostly a runner, but I'll take a couple of days and just walk. And that's when we talk. I mean, we get a lot done during those walking sessions. For her and for myself, where we both feel better. We feel heard. We feel supported. There's that emotional connection of somebody that you know is going to tell you like it is in the framework of I love you so when you hear this coming from me, it's coming out of love. So that's important.
Stasha Boyd 09:33
Yeah, it because it's not aiming to hurt it's not aiming to be a sense of betrayal. And and actually, it's like and one of the things there's a you know, this has been talked about since Aristotle and before but Aristotle actually wrote about this and he defined in his one of his writings, what he called the three layers of friendships. So you know, 1000s of years before Christianity, we got this guy, you know, out here, you know, thinking this through, and he basically said, there's three types, three layers of friends. And he calls them there's your friends of utility, which are like your deal friends, the only reason you're friends with these people is because you're each getting something out of the deal. Now it might be work friends, or normally those kind of transactional friends, you know, you're friends with them because you happen to be in the same area or you're friends with them because you know, you're keeping the peace in the office or whatever. Or the people you see, if you're like in the rotary, it's like, you're all involved in the rotary. So we're all going to keep things moving together, we're all going to be friends. Transactional. Then there's the friendship of pleasure, which you're friends with them because there's something pleasurable that the two of you get. So maybe you both have the same sense of humor or you share a hobby or you have your your you've got kids and you have like mummy playdates or something, you develop a friendship around those things. But if that thing goes away, the friendship fades away. And then the last one is the kind, what they call is like the friendship of virtue, which is, there's no reason for this friendship, they can do nothing for you. And they can do no harm to you, they have nothing you need, you have nothing they need. They can be their true self, their best self, their worst self, their whatever self and the the relationship, the intimacy of the friendship doesn't diminish. And I think for me, I mean, I kind of expanded that out I will talk about a little bit later. But I think that for me, those super super relationships of virtue, if you have, you can count on one hand, five people like that, I think that's an amazing thing. I think what's happened right now, though, is you know, Facebook, and other things have warped our definition of what a friend is, and isn't so badly that people don't quite understand that there are distinctions and layers and, and circles of friendship, they try to make everybody an intimate, and then they get disappointed and hurt when they're not. So I think that's kind of something that I kind of want to talk about a little bit more.
Cheryl Stuller 11:53
Mm hmm. I think a friendship usually starts off with a common interest, and then sustains itself, if you've developed that intimacy and that trust, and that I have your back and that I love you and I care about you, that's when it becomes a long lasting thing. And those I think, are the best kind, because I cannot talk to Suzanne for several nights, and then I call her and we pick up right where we left off, you know, and there's no, I'm not worried. She's not worried about me not talking to her for a couple days. I'm not worried about her. You know, I'm still thinking about her and everything. But you know, we pick right up where we left off, it's not a big deal. It's not a Hey, you didn't call me Monday night, what's up with that? You know, there's none of that tension or judgment. So I really appreciate that about her because I know she's always going to be there for me.
Stasha Boyd 12:53
I think, I think it's it's not it's that for me, it's like I have friends like that, that I'll go years without seeing or speaking to. And then I see them. And it's like we just stopped talking yesterday. It's my friends from Up with People, my friends from the theater. And I think that the reason I think that those those friendships are so easy to to kind of pick up and then move forward and then just pick up again, as if time didn't happen was because of the intense intimacy of the formation of them. When you're in the theater, and you're working on a show together, I mean, first of all, you're extremely open, you're extremely vulnerable, you have a lot of super intense conversation. Same thing in Up with People, we would be going into people's homes, and we're taught and trained. And we just a natural affinity for being able to really get into, to go from surface conversation to deep conversation pretty quickly. And with that, and then we spent a year together on these buses, having this constantly intense, intense relationships. And so when you move, you can pick it up and move and set it down. If it was all surface, there's nothing still there. And that's actually kind of thing going back to the Facebook thing. It's like there are people that are on my Facebook. The only reason they're there is because I used to somehow possibly work in the same kind of building with them.
Cheryl Stuller 14:11
Mm hmm.
Stasha Boyd 14:13
We went out for drinks after work. We'd call each other friends, hey my friend, but now 20 years later, we don't have anything in common. Some of them I don't like I've gotten rid of a lot of them. They'll be like okay, what you're saying I don't care for, they're gone. Because I try not to confuse real life friendship with Facebook air quotes friendship.
Cheryl Stuller 14:34
Right? Yeah, not nearly in the same category. Well, you and I kind of have that relationship where we kind of fell off in high school, we went our own ways and I got married and you went off with Up with People. And then you know, we picked right back up where we left off. And I don't know about you, but for me, there wasn't any kind of a thing between us, it was like, not a big deal that that had happened. And I feel like that, I see that you're going to disagree, but I feel like that. I feel like that because we had that connection. As kids, we had that connection about where we grew up. We had that connection about what our home life was like, you know, there was something for me with you that I had with nobody else.
Stasha Boyd 15:29
I think that's and that, for me is the main thing. You, you and I had such an intense, you know, formative years, you know, when we were when we were growing up. But it's like the little phrase that you know, well, we just kind of went our own separate ways. Girlfriend, you and I got into a fistfight at the fucking bus stop. We got into a throwdown an absolute fistfight at the bus stop that had been building and building and building over that bullshit that, that the other little mean girls were doing all of that other bullshit. And I think the thing was, is that I became friendless overnight. And that, you know, we'll talk about this more next week, when we talk about meaningful moments. I mean, I literally from day, from one day to the next, I had no friends, because you were my only friend, all the other girls in our group, they were followers of you, you were the leader of our group. And when I was cast out, I had no, I had no friends. I mean, there were people that I knew in class and people that I had classes with, but that whole idea of the person who you talk to, and who knows you and who shares jokes and all that, that was just gone. Um, but because Mama had the brilliance of mind, to like get me involved with the theater. And again, we can talk about that later, I had this new outlet. I think the thing that made it when we did, were able to kind of get back to together friends later in life, because again, I was at your wedding it's not like we never spoke to each other again, I came to see you when I was home from Up with People. It was shortly after that, that you'd moved to Pensacola. So that's I think, where the split really occurred. And we didn't have Facebook, you know, when you're gone, you were gone, kind of deal.
Cheryl Stuller 17:06
Oh, and it's interesting, you say that, because as your world expanded, mine got smaller, because I fell into that dating the one person. It all the focus was all on him, it was an abusive relationship. And because my world got smaller, I felt the same way you felt at that time where as I was on my own, and I didn't have anybody to turn to or talk to, which kept me in that relationship longer than I should have been. Had I had a friend like I have in Suzanne, and how I had a friendship in you, I maybe not would have married that person.
Stasha Boyd 17:50
I think that, and to me, that's the key. It's like when we talk about the value of old friends and maintaining old relationships. To me, that is one of the biggest values is that I have a person in my life, you who knew me when. Who knew me when I was seven, who knew me when I was, you know, the first time we were learning to swim, who knew me when we were getting into fights with our brothers, who knew me when we were like going for bike rides, riding our bikes up to the Girl Scouts, you know, and that there's nobody that I meet now that can ever understand that part of me. I can tell them, I can talk, whatever, but that person is never going to have that. And had you and I not come back together, that relationship would have been lost, all that value would have been lost. And now I think what's really, and I credit you for a lot of this because you know, you're the one who's out there going like let's do a podcast. Let's do this. Let's get together. Let's- I'm like, okay, you're still like the team leader. And I'm still kind of like the girl follower.
Cheryl Stuller 18:55
Well, and interestingly enough, you and I would still stay in contact when big things happened. When you got married, when I got divorced, when, you know, big things would happen in my life or your life, we would always come into contact with each other, even if it had been a couple of years. Because we had that base, you know, foundation and connection and closeness. I know we've said this before in other podcasts, but you and I grew up in such a unique area. Whereas we could have been the closed minded country people that didn't see the value in anybody else and stayed in that small area. And we thought bigger than that. And I lost that for several years. Thank God. I was strong enough to get out of that and move away from that. But we also had that uniqueness about us. We didn't stay that small minded redneck community. You know, we we thought beyond that, and I credit both of our parents with a lot of how we were able to do that.
Stasha Boyd 20:10
Oh god, yes. And but here's the thing, though, I think that you know, because of that you and I both had this kind of weird understanding of friends and friendships and how and we had to kind of come to our own way of learning to make friends. And it's taken me a lot of time and struggle, and I've had people you know, part of it, it's like, you know, I would always have trouble like making and keeping friends. And I still to this day, it's a weird little thing that will happen where it's like, you know, something will happen with a friend and they're just gone. Just gone. And I'm kind of okay with that. Because if that happens, okay, fine. But I still think that I still think that because we had to do much of our own self discovery that we did learn a little bit more about making and keeping friends. Because you have a pretty good Friendship Circle now, don't you?
Cheryl Stuller 21:04
I do. And I think you're going to talk about the different layers of friends, but my really close friend is Suzanne, and of course you. I can talk to you about anything as well. And then you have those periphery friends that I'm getting together Thursday night with a group of women that know me, and I'm able to talk to them about some of what goes on, but I don't divulge everything. Like we're not got intimate close, that you and I and Suzanne are, um, and we just meet up for drinks or dinner or to have a game night at somebody's house or something like that. And we all just kind of chit chat and catch up. But it's not that intimate, close relationship that that I value the most. I love my group of friends that I get to do that with I don't want to take away from that. But in the day to day, nitty gritty of life, when you have somebody that that your ride or die, you've heard that, ride or die. Somebody that I can call and would help me bury the body. That's what I have in you guys. And and you that is so so important to have that.
Stasha Boyd 22:13
I agree. And I think you know, I don't want to diminish the the other things either that to diminish the other layers or levels of friendship, because some people move in and out of the layers. And also the here's what happened during COVID. It's like, all of a sudden, we kind of lost all the peripheral people. And for me, that was a huge hole. I like seeing these people. I liked going downtown and running into folks and chit chatting over small talk and you know, making jokes and all that kind of stuff. Suddenly that was gone. And then we were told we kind of had to stay away from and we couldn't have so much many gatherings with our next level of groups of people, and then that really hurt. And then it was sort of like okay, well, you're not supposed to even go see, and I'm like, okay, hell no, we've just crossed the fucking line, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. And so I had to kind of figure out how I was going to solve that problem. Because I am, I worked so hard to develop friendships, and to be a good friend, that I was not willing to lose some of them. So actually, before we move on, I like real quickly I want to go through my, my Stasha Boyd's, you know, friendship circles. You want to hear 'em, Cheryl?
Cheryl Stuller 23:24
I do and then we'll talk about what makes you a good friend. What are the qualities that make you a good friend? And let's go through that checklist and see where we fall short, or where we do really well.
Stasha Boyd 23:37
Absolutely. So so. So when it comes to friends, like I said, I like to have a large group of friends, but I don't see them as all one blocking source. So uh, we and for you guys who may have heard, you know, Mike, and I have a porch on the back of our house that we put on, and we, and we have our porch parties, and then we have dinner parties, and then you know, we have like closeness. So I kind of use that as my little scale. So basically, there are like the porch worthy people. And the porch worthy people are folks that we just know and like. They might be friends of friends. We see them around town, you know, if we're gonna invite one friend over and this person is going to come with them. Absolutely. Yeah, man. They're that big backdrop of life. I love those guys. Um, then we have the ones that we're like going, Okay, our dinner party regulars, the dinner party, regulars are people that there's something we want to know more about. It's like their sense of humor. We think this person and that person might get along. So we want to connect them. We want to have like, conversations within like, you know, six to 10 people so it's like a roundtable thing. Then it might be dinner parties or dinners out. Next Level is gonna be like the the dinner party regulars. And these are the people that we already know what they're thinking. We know what they like, we know what they don't like, we know what their points of view are on matters that are important. These are what I would consider probably our our 10 to 15, what I would consider close friends people that we, yeah,
Cheryl Stuller 25:03
Are these the chicks that take off their bras and get in the hot tub?
Stasha Boyd 25:09
Actually, a lot of those are like, you know, kind of like the Porch Party and the dinner party candidates that's in that that level. The dinner party regulars, you know, they just take off their bras anywhere, it doesn't really matter. I could walk through the house naked, whatever. Um, then we have the guest room worthy, which is kind of those people and the guest room worthy are the people that we would absolutely say, Yeah, man, stay in the house, stay here tonight. You know, I trust you with my possessions. I trust you with my animals, I trust you with everything. These are people who are really intimate friends of ours, we're going to get up the next morning and have breakfast together, that's that's who they are. And then guestroom preapproved are the people who are like Stasha, my husband and I just got into a fight. And I just need to go calm down. I'm like, you know where the lockbox to the key is, let yourself in, there's food in the fridge, knock yourself out. Those are the people who can come into my house anytime. And then the very, very last group are the ones who we call the bury the body friends. And those are the ones who if something happens to us, some crisis occurs, something dreadful happens. That's our first call. And we know that they will drop everything and be here as fast as they can. So yeah, and people slide up and down the line, some people come in a little closer then they might slide down, or they slide in, they slide out, but all of them are important.
Cheryl Stuller 26:25
I agree. Alright, let's talk about what makes you a good friend. All right?
Stasha Boyd 26:31
Love this list.
Cheryl Stuller 26:32
Okay, so you have to be a good listener. So when,
Stasha Boyd 26:37
What? Hm?
Cheryl Stuller 26:40
When Suzanne and I walk, I'll say, am I up first? Or are you up first? You know, like, what level of week have you had, and here lately, it's been, girl I'm first, and then you get to go. But I always make sure that we take turns and that I, you know, I hear her out, she hears me out. And then I absolutely want to know what she thinks of what I'm saying. And I'll say to her, you know, I'm not really sure how I feel about this, I really want your opinion on this. Or I'll say, I want you to always remind me how I felt about that. That particular scenario, don't let me minimize it, because that's how I really feel about it. You know, so we have that kind of call me out on my bullshit kind of relationship.
Stasha Boyd 27:30
Let me, let me ask you about that one. Because I think that's, the thing about being the good listener. And this has happened to me before, and I need to, and this is on me, it's like, you know, Jesus, I will start deciding that somebody else's life truly is harder than mine. And I will start listening to them more, and more, and more, and then months pass, and the next thing you know, a year has passed. And anytime we get together, they've stopped asking me about me. All we do is talk about them. And I think that's one of those things, too, where it's like, you want to be a good listener. But as a cautionary tale, ladies, you've got to learn to say to somebody, if all you're hearing is about them, and you're the one being the good listener all the time, you either need to say something to that person, or you need to kind of say, Okay, this friendship is out of balance, I need to get it back in balance, or I need to go or they need to go.
Cheryl Stuller 28:19
Absolutely, absolutely. Because that becomes that person getting something out of you. And that's a selfish motive. That's not a friendship, because that's not a genuine love for each other, and you have each other's back.
Stasha Boyd 28:33
Or they might not notice again, if you've been if you're the one that's going, it's like, oh yeah, please tell me tell me tell me more, tell me more and not quote unquote, burdening them. And this is where I want everybody. I always say Don't kid yourself, you know, make sure you know what your part in something is before you jump on somebody else. If they're acting that way, because you're encouraging it, then you've got to take the action. So that's a good one. That's a good one.
Cheryl Stuller 28:59
Okay. Non-judgmental. Because you, and I don't I don't mean this as in don't give somebody your opinion on something if they ask for it. I mean, be careful how you judge what somebody else is going through because you're not in their shoes, and what if it changes later on? You know, and they want to go back to that relationship that's toxic, or they want to continue in the job that doesn't appreciate them and doesn't pay them well. Then you've already judged them on that and they're going to be less likely to come to you and that's not having somebody's back either.
Stasha Boyd 29:38
No. And one thing that I try, and I think I may have mentioned this before, the way I kind of distinguish between being judgmental, and exercising good judgment. Being judgmental is when you examine a situation and you or your friend, and you say okay, that's not right for you. You should not, I've examined your situation and here's what you need to do. Using good Judgment is I have examined the situation. And here's what I would do. This is what would work for me. I'm going to tell you what I think I'm going to tell you what, how I would or what I would advise you. But I'm not telling you what you need to think, or you need to do. Because like you said, I haven't walked a mile in their shoes. And also, most people, me and you included, people will give us their best advice. And it's probably very good. And we will still do some version of our own thing anyway.
Cheryl Stuller 30:31
Absolutely. Because you, you know your own story. And you know your own dynamics. Yeah, I well, and, and Suzanne will tell me something about something that happened at work or something with one of her boys. And I'll say, well, dammit, this is what I would do. I would not put up with that shit for one minute. And this is why, you know, yeah, and we have that relationship where she knows that she can still do what she wants to do. And I still support her. That's the difference.
Stasha Boyd 31:01
Yeah, and I also think, because I actually had this, you know, with a good friend of mine the other couple of weeks ago who just had a setback. And it was a big setback. I mean, she had a shitty fucking day. And that particular day, I was doing my best, but probably four words out of five, she did not want to hear. And I was trying really hard to, you know, be supportive, I tried to do all the things. But at the same time, there was I could I could not, I could not understand the depth of her emotion as much as I tried. And because of that, you know, she got really mad at me a couple of times, and man, she let me have it a few times, and I'm sitting there going, it's her day, it's her day. And I'm not, there's nothing wrong with her being mad at me today. There's nothing wrong with her being, you know, thinking my advice, or whatever is bullshit. Today, she gets, she gets to think what she wants. And I know she loves me, she knows I love her. And if she wants to just be upset and be mad, and to be mad at me, fine. Now, if this turns into a three week thing, then then we got to have another conversation. But sometimes one of the greatest gifts you can give a friend is to let them be mad at you.
Cheryl Stuller 32:07
Mm hmm. Well, and when, when something goes on with somebody who's close to me, I oftentimes take that on, you know, I oftentimes say, Okay, well, I'm not going to talk to him either. Because if he's hurting you, then I'm going to have your back on that, you know, I I get all hyped up and behind their back and, you know, wanting to, you know, be the hero with the cape for them. I don't know if that's always a good thing or a bad thing. But I just, my loyalty to somebody often comes out in that way.
Stasha Boyd 32:46
And I think that's the thing, too, is like, sometimes, you know, it's like, even good things. You know, as long as you're you're out there with the sword and go and say, Okay, are you still good with this? Are you still good with this? You're you're fighting for them. And finally, they tap you on the shoulder and go, okay, honey, I got this. Thank you. And then you're able to step aside, as opposed to the person that will sit there and fall on them and go, are you crazy? He did this to you and this to you, and how could you, and I'm out here fighting for you. And the next thing, you know, you're, you're not you personally, but you know, the general you. You're putting yourself in the position where your outrage is greater than their hurt feelings. Or their moving forward. And that's the thing too, I think, you know, when it comes to listening, and using good judgment, you've got to know when it's time to, like, I have been the warrior for as long as you needed me to. You're, you're leading this charge, you're going to tell me what to do. And I'm going to fucking do it.
Cheryl Stuller 33:40
And then I'll say, Okay, are we talking to him now? Or are we not? Whatever you tell me is what we're doing, I've got your back.
Stasha Boyd 33:48
Exactly. Please tell me where we are. I'm totally on board. I'm your henchwoman, I will totally do whatever you say.
Cheryl Stuller 33:55
Exactly. That's more of what I am. I'm like, Okay, I'm just checking in, where are we this week, you know?
Stasha Boyd 34:01
But I think that that's important. That's also part of what builds that trust. If the person can say, here's how I feel today, Are you with me? Knowing that if they change their mind tomorrow, you're still with them? That's a good friend. Next?
Cheryl Stuller 34:17
Appreciates others. And so that means kind of I appreciate, you know, that you are there for me. I appreciate what you do for me in this friendship, and I'm going to do that back for you. That's reciprocal.
Stasha Boyd 34:34
Are you talking about like between the two people? Or are you talking about people that are outside of the relationship or other friends?
Cheryl Stuller 34:39
No, between the two people between that friendship that you have, I appreciate you, I respect you. I honor this friendship and this is the way I'm going to show that you know, having that reciprocal relationship like you said, where you're not monopolizing the need for something and it's in balance, we appreciate each other and what each other brings to the table.
Stasha Boyd 35:06
That's a huge one for me, because like one of the things that I feel very strongly about, and this, this kind of goes back like a family thing, I think. But I am super huge on talking about all of my friend's strengths, what they're really good at, what they bring to the table. I don't want to spend my time talking about what either I don't like, or the things that they may have screwed up, or the challenges and difficulties that they're having. I just don't want to do that. I've been around people for a long time, that the way they spend their time is talking shit about their friends. Here's how they screwed up this, here's how this went horribly wrong. Look at this dumb ass thing that they did. And that's their entertainment. And I would I would be so embarrassed if any friend of mine ever thought that I would do that to them. And because of that it just kind of starts happening when I'm in a room. And again, this doesn't really happen with the close, close friends. But if it kind of starts happening in the circle, and I think I've mentioned this before about women who start running down their husband, to me if the husband leaves, I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna, let me stop you right there. I can't do that. I'll do the same thing with friends. And sometimes it'll take the form of Wow, that's a really weird thing to say, because they say nothing but nice things about you. Wow, that's a very strange thing to say. Because I don't have that experience. They're great at x, y, or z. I've never seen what you're talking about. And if they keep going, a lot of times, again, if I'm in their house, I'll excuse myself. If they're in my house I'm gonna say, yeah, that's not working for me. You know, I love them. I can't I can't have this. I know they're not here right now. But I can't what kind of a friend would I be if I let somebody like, say negative things about somebody that I don't, I don't know about? And I think that's an important thing as a friend to know, to know that. If I'm not in the room, a close friend has my back.
Cheryl Stuller 36:52
And reciprocal. Yeah. Okay, here's a big one, for me. Loyalty, this is a huge value of mine. And if something happens to you, it happens to me, you know, that's how much I care about you. That's how much I value you. That's how much I have your back. So loyalty, to me, is one of the top, one of my top values.
Stasha Boyd 37:23
And I gotta say, I'm struggling with that one, right now. I'm struggling. Um, and again, it might get back to that whole idea of, you know, I'm not I'm not vocal or verbal enough about, you know, what, what, when I feel like I need something, but you know, I've had friends lately, you know, again, especially through this whole COVID mess that have had challenges in their business, challenges in their relationship. And I felt like I was there for them, you know, and I think I was, you know, I put my money and my time and energy where my mouth is, I mean, I was there. And then I needed something and asked for it. And didn't get it. Mm hmm. And part of me goes, I don't want to say this out of loyalty thing I don't want I don't want to say that they're not loyal. I mean, they, they love me, I know they love me. But when push came to shove, they didn't. It didn't cross their mind that I might have a need. So I don't know if that's a loyalty question, and maybe even help with this. I don't know if that's a loyalty question. Or if that's an appreciation question.
Cheryl Stuller 38:22
I think that's more of Are they really your friend, in that close circle that you would call that intimate partnership, that that makes them a close friend, maybe they're one of those peripheral friends that don't really have your back when you really need them. And so you need to shift them to that category. So you don't have that expectation of them having your back when you need it.
Stasha Boyd 38:47
I think the thing is, like until I am able to have a conversation, I don't think I'm going to know, because that's really my question is like, you know, did they, did they do that because it just never crossed their mind that, you know, I could use some help? Or did they do it because their first instinct was to be cutting. Because again, the first person could have made a mistake. The second person, wow, I see something new about who they are.
Cheryl Stuller 39:14
And that's when you need to have that conversation to clarify. You know, this is what happened. This is how that made me feel. How do you feel about that? And once you get that answer, then you know how to move forward, you know, whether to keep them close to you, or you know, whether to put them in that peripheral peripheral view of friendship where you're not going to always rely on them.
Stasha Boyd 39:38
Yeah, I think that's the main thing, still love the person but you can't rely on them for that, then. So if I have a need, I can't rely there.
Cheryl Stuller 39:46
And if you know that, then you're safe moving forward with that relationship because you've established where it is.
Stasha Boyd 39:52
Right, exactly. So what's next, we got Oh, here we are, Cheryl.
Cheryl Stuller 39:56
Good communicator. Another one of my top top values.
Stasha Boyd 40:02
Cuz you're gonna tell people what you think, you're gonna communicate.
Cheryl Stuller 40:08
I think it's just so important because I think you devalue a relationship, whether it's intimate or friendship, or work, whatever relationship you have with that person, you devalue it, and you devalue the person in that relationship, if you don't communicate with them. And you can always be respectful and kind and take it from, this is how I am feeling about this, how do you feel those are all appropriate. But if you take that away from that person, and they don't know how you feel, and you haven't had that conversation, and you have said this in the past, then you can't really, you can't really own them for their actions, if they don't know how it has impacted you.
Stasha Boyd 40:51
Right. And here's the thing, I think that the thing about communication is two things off the top of my head. Number one, it's a skill, it's a skill to be able to, you know, speak your mind and speak your peace and not come across as angry, it's a skill to be able to organize your thoughts and to be able to analyze your thoughts and know what it is you're trying to say, I mean, that's a skill and you can, and I work on it, people work on it, you can work on it every day. But I think the other part of that of that thing about communication, is you have got to be willing to be uncomfortable. You've got to be willing to have a conversation where neither you nor them are going to feel all that great, it's gonna be it's upsetting, it's hard. But you've got to say, you know what, that's, that's life anyway, I've got to stand up, I gotta say something, I've got to deal with my discomfort, I'm gonna have to let them deal with their discomfort, and we're gonna have to move on. Because otherwise, you're not communicating. And I think I used to do this in my when I was teaching, you know, working a lot within HR and within business, I always would say, you know, sending out a memo or sending out an email is not communication. It's not communication until an action occurs, that shows that you received that message. And that's the same thing. It's like, if you're just like blaring at somebody, or blah, blah, blah, you're just like yelling out crap at people. Or if you're just, you know, kind of talking around a subject, but things aren't changing. Until you actually see the person got the message, either with a yes or no, or let's talk further. That's not communication. You've got to be able to say, here's what's happened. Now, what do you think?
Cheryl Stuller 42:35
And you and it has to be a safe space, not only for you as the communicator, but for the person who's receiving that communication. Otherwise, it shuts down the communication, it can't be. Go ahead,
Stasha Boyd 42:49
I was gonna say real quickly, just to clarify what we what Cheryl and I mean, when we talk about safe space, a safe space does not mean you never get to hear words you don't want to hear or you never have to listen to somebody's opinion that you don't like a safe space means that you get to feel about it however you want to feel about it. And the relationship isn't on the line. Right? Right. That's what safe spaces is like, you can say what you want, and the relationship is not on the line.
Cheryl Stuller 43:15
Well, and at the end of it, if you guys agree to disagree or disagree or agree to not move on with the relationship, that's all fine, too. But it has to be a safe space where that conversation can happen.
Stasha Boyd 43:29
Exactly. So what's next? Oh, you've got Honest.
Cheryl Stuller 43:34
Honesty, honesty, honesty, honesty, and it goes with communication. This is how I'm feeling right now. You know, and being honest about your emotions, and where you are in life, and you know if something happened how that made you feel and owning it.
Stasha Boyd 43:53
And I would say, again, and in the Advanced Studies version, the difference between honesty and truth, because here's the thing, I honestly hate wearing the color yellow, I think it's ugly. I honestly can't stand yellow, you'll find nothing yellow in my nothing. I honestly hate yellow. That does not mean that yellow is ugly is the truth. That is my honest feeling about it. But that in and of itself is not necessarily true. And so I think sometimes you know, you can listen to somebody say what they honestly think, honestly feel, and honestly believe. And you don't have to accept that as the truth. And you could also say, it's like, I hear you, I understand that you're telling me what your honest feelings are right now. I'm not going to tell you your feelings are wrong. You can feel what you want to feel. But I'm not going to accept your version as the truth. I will accept it as being honest. But not as you dictating to me what the truth of the universe is.
Cheryl Stuller 44:51
That's a really good distinction and it kind of goes with that safe space kind of thing, you need to allow the other person to have their thoughts, feelings. As well. Making plans, you have to follow through and make time for each other. You can't just, you know, rely on never getting together or making that other person a priority. You need to spend time together and cultivate that relationship, whether it's a friendship or an intimate partnership. It all comes in to play that way.
Stasha Boyd 45:28
Well, and I would think, because sometimes, you know, distances are challenging and all sorts of things. I would say that it's like making plans is almost like making and keeping promises, whatever you say you're going to do, follow through with it. If you say, Hey, you know, I'm gonna, I'll check in with you on Facebook. Check in. If you say, you know, I want to see, like maybe in a week I'll send you an email, let's get together in a week. Well, in a week, send the email. Or shut up. Don't say it. And I think that's kind of the thing. It's like, whatever you say you're going to do, whatever you plan to do, follow through on those plans.
Cheryl Stuller 46:02
Absolutely. That's a big one for me too, following through on what you said you're going to do,
Stasha Boyd 46:07
Because that hurts. I will tell you that is, that is one of things that hurts me deeply. If somebody says something to me, like, Oh, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And then they don't. And I don't know why this one just like will really like crush me harder than anything else. But that one, will I take that one really, personally, if somebody says they're going to call and they don't. I'll be like, Oh, wow. Okay.
Cheryl Stuller 46:29
It's like the dating episode, you thought really strongly about that in the dating episode, as well. So that is a big thing for you.
Stasha Boyd 46:37
It is, yeah. Okay. All right.
Cheryl Stuller 46:40
Um, let's skip down to vulnerable. Um, yes, you should. And this is a cautionary tale as well. Be careful what you divulge to friends and consider that, that might that relationship might change. And if they know intimate details about you, or your relationship with somebody else, and that, and that friendship changes, they have that information about you. I would say be vulnerable in the sense that you can, when you trust that person, and you know that they're going to have you back, but also know that things can change. And be careful what information you give out.
Stasha Boyd 47:24
Yeah, I would say, be vulnerable. But don't be stupid. I mean, a lot of people will sit there and like, bare their soul, and tell folks the most intimate details of their life and go, I'm just being vulnerable. It's like, no, in this moment, you're kind of being an idiot, you gotta stop this, because you've decided that whatever you say, is somehow sacrosanct. That what that you getting to say whatever you want to is, is your intention travels with it, I intended for this to be a private conversation. That's a child's way of thinking, as you grow older, especially when you hit midlife, and I think this is an important one is you do need to be able to have a little bit more discernment with your friends, and what you tell people about things. And I actually got this great bit of advice when we got married, that one of my one of my wedding showers, one of my bridal showers, one of the gals that everybody went around and said and said, what's the best piece of marital advice anybody ever gave you? And this one gal said, She's like, here's the thing, when you have your troubles, husband and wife, and you will, keep them between yourself, because you will forgive each other. But your friends and family never will. And I think that that's kind of a thing, you know, kind of getting away from the marriage side of things, but looking at like the super close friends, you have to think about the fact that is this person, somebody that you could say I am deeply struggling with this? And then two days later say I have forgiven them and the person goes okay. Or are they the one who is going to sit there and go, Oh, my God, I can't believe now. Now they're thinking poorly of you and your decision making and this other person other relationships? Are they going to follow your lead? Or are you just like you said a minute ago giving them ammunition for the future?
Cheryl Stuller 49:13
Ammunition and you become vulnerable to what they do with that information. And sometimes that can't be healthy. They don't have healthy intentions, whereas you thought they did? So, be be cautious on that is my point to that one.
Stasha Boyd 49:29
Yeah. And I and for me, that's the main thing I think. You want to be vulnerable, but make sure that person is worthy.
Cheryl Stuller 49:38
Yeah. So what do we want people to take away from this episode, Stasha?
Stasha Boyd 49:44
I think the main thing about friendships for me is number one, especially for women in our age. Understand that it's that it's an ebb and flow there's there's it's great to have a lot of peripheral friends. It's I think it makes life richer. I think it makes life more fun. You know, not everyone has to be an intimate, but there are these different levels between good acquaintance and you know, ride or die, bury the body bitch. I mean, there's there's room there. And that's fine. I think that the other main thing that I would say to take away from it is effort. just real briefly before we move on, a few years back, you know, actually more than a few, it's probably, you know, 15, 10 or 15 years ago, Mike and I had a falling out with some very close friends. And at the end of that falling out, once again, it was like, we had no friends, all of our friends went with that side of the argument, and we were kind of left out in the cold. And we kind of went, you know what we need to do better, it's up to us to make more friends. And so we set out to actually do that. And we did. And we, we don't have a lot of transactional friends, because we don't have that kind of a business. And we don't, don't sit on a lot of boards and stuff. But we have a lot of people that we've met on the periphery friends of friends kind of deal. And then we're like, we like that they're funny. Hey, we want to get to know you better come over for drinks on the porch. Or we'll say let's let's meet downtown and like, have a drink with us or whatever, or just grab dinner. And we let those relationships move forward. Now most of them don't move past the dinner parties or the dinner party regulars. But the ones that do crossover into that, you know, yeah, man stay in my guest home or you know, open access to my house. Those relationships have really been cultivated, we work hard for them. And and we and we feel like they they work hard for us, they put up with a lot from us.
Cheryl Stuller 51:37
And you that that point that you just said: You worked hard for that. Any type of relationship that we value we have to put work into it. That's number one. And I would say my my second thing to add to that is be there for the good and the bad. Don't just ride somebody's coattail of friendship, when everything is going well. I am the person that if you tell me you've got cancer, or you're telling me you're going through a hard time, I'm going to be checking in with you often. And I'm going to say, I don't know what to say, but I'm here or I do know what to say. And if this is something I can do for you, I'm here for you. And I will keep going back and checking in and checking in and checking in and say I'm still thinking about you, I'm still here for you. Is there anything that you need, I don't drop off. So if something is meaningful to you, in a relationship, stick with that. Stick with that person keep reaching out, even if they are not in a place where they can reach back out to you. They've heard it, it's never a bad thing to reach out to somebody and be there for them.
Stasha Boyd 52:48
Yes. And I think that's probably and to not let peripherial things get in between that. Like, you know, again, one of them. One of the big ones is politics. I would say there are people that disagree with me politically, and I love and if they need something, I am at their door because they need something. And I love them because I know them to be good people, I know them to be, again, these people are are move into my house worthy, they'll take care of my animals worthy. I mean, I can deal with that. If somebody is a true asshole, and they're a horrible human being, they don't even get an invite onto the porch. They're told to leave, and that will cross political party lines. I mean, it's like, let your let your friendships be about the things that you value, and that bring joy to your life and to other people's lives. I think going back to that one thing I think I said at the beginning is how so much of our happiness, especially as we move through later in life depends on the qualities of our friendships. And we got to work at it. You got to work at it. It's a lie that that things should be easy. I'm sorry, ladies, people tell you all the time in memes all over the place. If it's not easy move on. If you have to struggle move on. It's like no some days, it's not fucking easy. And you've got to put in the effort. Now it shouldn't be hard forever. It shouldn't be it shouldn't be hard. It shouldn't be abusive. It shouldn't be you on the receiving end of bullshit. But some days, it's not going to be easy to be a friend of a person who's hurting when they're yelling at you.
Cheryl Stuller 54:17
And don't assume that you know how somebody feels or they know how you feel. Have that good communication skill of having a conversation.
Stasha Boyd 54:26
Exactly. So that is our conversation on friendship, Cheryl. I mean, we've missed so much with have so many extra notes in here. But that's okay.
Cheryl Stuller 54:35
This was a good one though. We had a lot to talk about on this one.
Stasha Boyd 54:38
I think so and we'll talk about more about it because here's the thing, I think our friends are going to give us their opinions on this one and see if we like did okay, or if they think we're completely full of crap on this. Our next topic
Cheryl Stuller 54:50
We actually know this time! Yay for us!
Stasha Boyd 54:55
Our next topic is what we've decided to call Major Moments. Major moments are those times in your life when something occurred that you didn't realize then, ended up having a super profound impact on the rest of your life. And the direction that your life took. So, it may have been something small it may have been something big but whatever it was it had a major impact on how your life moved forward from that moment after.
Cheryl Stuller 55:25
So dm us if our listeners have anything that is significant to them about that subject matter, and we'll incorporate that.
Stasha Boyd 55:34
Absolutely and everybody else that's our topics and that's our time. As always, thank you so much for listening. Thank you everybody. We really appreciate and love you so much. We are we work hard to get better every week. And we hope that you guys notice and we hope that you know you guys are able to tell friends and if you enjoy it, tell somebody that you think might enjoy it.
Cheryl Stuller 55:56
Alright, love you all, have a good week.
Stasha Boyd 55:58
All right, everybody. Bye bye.