Emotional Manipulation: Breadcrumbing, negging, ghosting, etc.

Ladies, there’s a lot of bullsh*t in this world and a lot of that bullsh*t has some new names. Whatever it’s called, it’s emotionally manipulative AND it’s effin’ bullsh*t. More importantly, being on the receiving end of this BS can make you question your sanity, your judgement, and your relationships. 

In this episode, we want to know what the hell is the difference between “ghosting” and “caspering”? Who the hell came up with “negging” and what are they trying to achieve? Where the hell are these supposed “breadcrumbs” supposed to lead? 

But the most important question, dear WarriorQueens, isn’t “Why would some asshole do this to me?” It’s “How quickly am I going to recognize this BS as BS and scrape it (and the assh*le that put it there) off my high-heeled shoe?” 

So, grab a glass of something ice-cold, ladies. We’re delving deep into this emotionally toxic BS so you never have to again.   

Cheryl's drink this eve:

Sticking with iced tea tonight.

Stasha's mocktail tonight:

Grapefruit juice and grapefruit sparkling water in a fancy glass.

Episode notes and links:

Beadcrumbing:  Giving a person just enough info to keep them hanging on, hoping a relationship exists. Could be romantic or a friend. 

 Negging: Saying insulting or otherwise negative things to a person to affect their self-esteem or to make them defend themselves. Can escalate into very abusive behavior, often an early warning sign of an abusive, toxic person or relationship
 
Ghosting: Cutting off all communication without explanation.

 Submarining: When someone ghosts, then suddenly returns and acts like nothing happened. 

 Caspering: Rather than simply ignore your texts, the Casper will respond to your text 12 hours later with a vague but friendly reply. Instead of not replying to an invitation to hang out, the Casper will hint that they're interested, without any intention of following through. 

 Catfishing: Someone who uses a fake identity to lure dates online. 

 Fishing: When someone will send out messages to a bunch of people to see who’d be interested in hooking up, wait to see who responds, then take their pick of who they want to get with. It’s called fishing because the fisher loads up on bait, waits for one fish to bite, then ignores all the others. 

 Fleabagging: consistently dating people that are wrong for you. 

Transcript

Stasha Boyd: 0:01

Hi there, I'm Stasha.

Cheryl Stuller: 0:03

I'm Cheryl.

Stasha Boyd: 0:05

And between us we

Cheryl Stuller: 0:05

have four kids,

Stasha Boyd: 0:07

three businesses,

Cheryl Stuller: 0:08

two husbands and one goal:

Stasha Boyd: 0:10

To get to The Point of the Matter.

Cheryl Stuller: 0:11

These little seemingly small behaviors that really aren't small, if they are affecting your well being, if they are affecting your confidence if they are affecting your relationship, it's, it's a time to self reflect, and decide, do I still want to be in this situation with this person?

Stasha Boyd: 0:35

The solution to every single one of these is in you. They are all in you. Because these people fixing their bad behavior is not going to happen. They are going to continue doing this. If they're, if they're, you know, doing it, they're gonna keep doing it. Assholes are gonna keep assholing, that's just what they do. Cheryl, we're back. It's almost like we never left.

Cheryl Stuller: 1:03

Can you believe this is our 25th episode?

Stasha Boyd: 1:06

No, I cannot believe that this is our 25th episode. I was looking at that and thinking, A: it doesn't seem like it's been that long. And I went through our the Buzzsprout thing the other day and just looked at all the titles and all the things that we've been chatting on. I'm like, that is, that is an amazing list of titles, I think.

Cheryl Stuller: 1:25

I think so. Yeah, absolutely. I'm privileged, I'm privileged that we are still doing this and that people are still listening. So we appreciate all of that.

Stasha Boyd: 1:35

And people are trying to give us comments. I heard from one of my friends, she tried to put a comment on Spotify. And it's not showing up and I can't figure out why not. So I've sent a note into Spotify to see, I must have some setting wrong or something, but to see if we can, because maybe people are trying to comment on Spotify or iTunes or something. And we're just not seeing that. So, listeners out there. If you try to comment on something and it doesn't show up. Please get in touch with us, Facebook us or Instagram, let us know. Because we won't know if, you know, people don't tell us.

Cheryl Stuller: 2:09

Absolutely. And it seems like we're back to the week of no drinking because we drank much. This continues to be a theme for us. I don't know what's happening to us over the weekends.

Stasha Boyd: 2:24

I know what's happening to me. And what's happening to me is that I am really enjoying people again. And and for me, I feel like it's because I've had to make a decision about the COVID situation and whatnot. Um, I have I am vaccinated. I'm a big believer in vaccines. I know a lot of people who are not and they are not vaccinated or whatnot. But I have had to make the decision that I have done the best I can I have protected myself the best I can. And and I can't keep staying away from places and people out of that concern. So I'm I'm at the point now where I'm willing to risk getting, you know, either getting sick or even, you know, if I catch it and pass it on to somebody else who's not vaccinated, that's on them. I can't worry about it anymore. I got to have my life back. And so that's that's what it is for me. I'm feeling a little bit unleashed.

Cheryl Stuller: 3:17

Okay, well.

Stasha Boyd: 3:19

Yours is not that is what we're saying.

Cheryl Stuller: 3:21

Mine is not that. I just need to rein myself in.

Stasha Boyd: 3:29

Yeah, and that's the thing. I think that's true of a lot of things. It's like when things are starting to kind of go, get out of balance. It is a matter of being able to take yourself in hand and go okay, look, this is, this is nuts. I think a lot of people sometimes they don't question and they'll see the solution is in themselves. The solution is you have to make a change. You've got to make a decision.

Cheryl Stuller: 3:49

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm drinking water tonight, I'm being a good girl.

Stasha Boyd: 3:54

And I'm drinking grapefruit juice with grapefruit juice sparkling water in it. I am however using my little fancy glass. I found these at Goodwill. So I got little um, these are what's the tequila drink? The tequila drink that you drink with these glasses?

Cheryl Stuller: 4:12

Oh, a margarita?

Stasha Boyd: 4:13

Thank you. Good god, my brain. Margarita. It's a margarita glass that has like a little saguaro cactus, green stand and the big- so I just found three of them at Goodwill and I thought they were cute and kitchy. So I just picked them up.

Cheryl Stuller: 4:27

Alright, what are we talking about today?

Stasha Boyd: 4:30

We are talking about, essentially, in a nutshell, it's bullshit behavior in dating. But it really is about mental manipulation, mental health manipulation and emotional manipulation of people. A lot of these things are related to dating. So it's been friends of ours that have experienced this but it's also just related to life and work etc. and regular friendship relationships. So we've taken as a society to giving them cutesy names. I have, I take a very hard line on the cutesy names, but we'll talk about that later. But you'd actually brought up the the idea and you mentioned our first our first word, so why don't you take it away with, with that one.

Cheryl Stuller: 5:10

Breadcrumbing? I didn't know what that was.

Stasha Boyd: 5:13

How'd you find out about it?

Cheryl Stuller: 5:15

Uh, on an episode of Will and Grace.

Stasha Boyd: 5:21

And you're watching that, you know, with your like iced tea in hand going, wait, what?

Cheryl Stuller: 5:24

No, I'm watching that with my vodka. And I'm going, what is breadcrumbing? I've got to look this up. And then it interested me, because I have a friend who does this. So I was like, Oh, wow, now that I know what that is, I know somebody who does that.

Stasha Boyd: 5:42

Okay, so describe it for our listeners who also might not be aware of what breadcrumbing is. And it happened to you in a friend relationship. So go ahead.

Cheryl Stuller: 5:50

It's, it's dropping small morsels of interest, um, through texting, calling, social media, and then not following through. Whether that person is not available to follow through, whether that person is lonely, it could be that you've ended a relationship and this is a way for them to keep in touch with you, it's basically reaching out, and either complimenting you or saying how's your Saturday going, or I saw this memory pop up in my social media, I'm thinking about you and missing you. And yet, it's not going to go anywhere. And it just kind of piques your interest and gets you back involved with them emotionally or just thinking about them. And it kind of creates a situation where you can't move on, you know. Maybe not, can't is a strong word, but it brings you back into that relationship that you had or that you want to have and that is not happening.

Stasha Boyd: 6:55

So, so help me understand a little bit because to me, it just sort of sounds like, you know, cuz I'll do that sometimes if I'm, if I'm like on Facebook or something, and somebody will scroll by and I'll think Oh my god, I'm thinking about them. Let me just send them a little note right now. Hey, I've been thinking about you. So great to see your face pop up. You know, it reminded me of something.

Cheryl Stuller: 7:14

That's different. This is, this behavior is habitual. This is somebody who's doing this over and over and over again, it's not the occasional somebody on Facebook, and you want to check in with them. That's not, it's not that. It's somebody who's in your life. That either you want to have more of a relationship with them, whatever that looks like. It could be, it could be siblings, it could be a coworker, it could be an intimate partner, it could be any one of those, a friendship. You want to go further in the relationship, perhaps see them more often, spend more time with them. And you, you know, they they keep pushing you away. They don't follow through, but they keep reaching out. That's the difference.

Stasha Boyd: 8:04

Okay. Okay. Well, so I think, I think for me, it's like, if I start getting and maybe it is because and we'll talk about this also kind of as we keep going through. So many of the things we'll be talking about today. It's just asshole behavior. And I think I said this before with our with one of our other previous discussions was how it's like, if you learn to recognize bullshit, when you see it, when you start seeing it when you start seeing that kind of bad behavior. And you call it out immediately. And it either gets better or it doesn't. But it either corrects itself by or either it gets corrected by being called out. Or if it keeps on going, then you get to make a choice. You're like, Okay, I'm not putting up with this shit. So they can text all they want to, you don't respond, whatever it is. So, I always wonder sometimes when it's like it keeps going on and keeps going on, it keeps going on. Well, why the hell does it keep going on? Why are why is the person on the receiving end of this, still doing it? Still engaging?

Cheryl Stuller: 9:05

And that could be because you're lonely, you know, or, or you are missing that relationship, or you want to be in that person's life, and you're taking those little morsels that they're giving you and not speaking up for yourself. So hopefully, in the big picture, when we talk about all of this that we're going to talk about today, hopefully in the big picture, this is all that they are doing. But listeners need to know that a lot of times these type of small red flag behaviors that you may not know what they are, but it doesn't quite feel right, usually and can lead into bigger emotional problems in the relationship later on or even abuse, physical abuse, more severe emotional abuse. So it's that kind of bullshit radar that you're talking about that you want to see early on with these tiny Red Flags. That you want to nip in the bud.

Stasha Boyd: 10:03

Yeah. And I think that's me, it's like, you know, the the whole idea of having a, knowing what a problem is and being able to name it and identify it and define it. It's not enough to be able to do that. It's like, oh my gosh, she's like, this is breadcrumbing they're doing I'm being breadcrumbed. It's like, okay, no you've just defined the problem, you now have articulated the problem. Now you do something about it. And the best thing to do is to do it earlier and earlier and earlier.

Cheryl Stuller: 10:29

Exactly. And be willing and be willing to, you know, our very first episode was assertiveness. Go back to that episode, go back to that train of thought where you are asserting yourself. And, you know, part of this is knowing yourself enough to know, why am I letting this person do this to me? Am I lonely? Am I not able to move on? Am I okay, with being somebody's backup plan? Which is also why somebody can breadcrumb you. And if you're okay, with just an occasional hookup with this person, then define that, and that's okay. But if you're not okay with that, then you need to be willing to confront it, and decide if this relationship is going to be a good one for you. And usually, I would say no.

Stasha Boyd: 11:15

And I think that's the thing about the assertiveness idea is like in our first episode, I mean, we gave a lot of examples of like, our brand of, you know, assertiveness, but on a, on a day to day level, it really comes down to being willing and able to have an uncomfortable conversation. It's like, if this starts happening to you, you send a text back and you're like, Okay, I've noticed this happening. I was looking back over our texts. And you know, you've asked, you said, you want to get together on our last 10 texts, and this has not happened. Just so you know, can you can you explain this, oh, I've been busy, blah, blah, blah, okay, well, then let's get together on this date or this date. And if it doesn't happen, then you get to say, Okay, I am not going to respond anymore. Or you can say, that's nice. Or however you want to choose to deal with it. You get to deal with it on your own terms. Not constantly emotionally putting yourself in the Oh well if they would just not do this to me. Oh my gosh, why can't they? Why won't they get together with me? Why won't they? Why won't they, you, you will die in your grave before you ever figure out why they keep doing horrible things to you. You're never gonna know.

Cheryl Stuller: 12:23

Right? Um, and it's also it could also be that they don't ever have any intention of getting together with you or never asked to get together with you. It could be this little emotional high they get by reaching out with these small little nuggets, like, Hey, I'm remembering that dress you wore blah, blah, blah. And I really liked that. And if you're responding, they get an emotional high out of that. And, and they could that's another form of breadcrumbing that can happen to you. And again, decide if that's something you want to be a part of?

Stasha Boyd: 13:02

Well, because that's the other thing, that might be fine with you. You know, tere's some people where it's like, yeah, man, it's like they remember this. Oh, man, that was great. Glad you had a great memory. I have people that I know that I've liked that, you know, I don't communicate with very often. But if they say something like that, I'm like, oh, man, that's great. And even if I knew that, they were just getting that little kick out of it of getting my response back. Sure, no problem. I don't. Without malice, if I didn't think they were doing it with malice, or with bad intent, it's just what they did. And I did genuinely like the person, I probably would be okay. But again, that's me. I'm not a I'm not an emotionally needy person. I'm not a jealous person. I'm not a lonely person. I'm not. You know, there's a lot of things- I'm pretty self aware. I also know for a fact that the second I get tired of it, that person will be gone. So I don't have that kind of, that type of, I don't want to say instability, because that's not the word I'm looking for. Confusion, I don't have that kind of confusion about what will happen if it keeps going. And I don't want it to.

Cheryl Stuller: 14:07

Well, and another reason somebody might be doing that is because they are either married or in another relationship. And they get that little bit of thrill, you know, reaching out to you, and don't think anything of it as far as it being a damaging thing. But, you know, oftentimes it can be.

Stasha Boyd: 14:27

Yeah, it can, it can be and again, to each their own, it's like, don't be, like you were saying a minute ago, don't be somebody else's, you know, second choice, bad thought or whatever. But if you're if you're just... recognize the difference between somebody damaging you, and you damaging yourself. I think that's kind of if somebody is doing something like this to you, and you want it to stop but you're not stopping it. You're damaging yourself.

Cheryl Stuller: 14:59

Mm hmm. Exactly.

Stasha Boyd: 15:00

Yes, if somebody is doing it, and you can't, and you have no way to stop it, or you don't know how, then that's a whole different level of problem. You know, that's a whole different thing that's getting into, like you said that escalating behavior. Um, but yeah, I think that for me for breadcrumbing. It's like if somebody, if you're not getting out of that relationship, that friendship, what you want to be getting, you call it out once. You say, Hey, here's what I'm looking for. And this is what's happening. Is there an explanation? You give them one more chance, if it happens again, then the last one, you say, this isn't working for me. Have a nice life.

Cheryl Stuller: 15:36

Right. Thank you and next.

Stasha Boyd: 15:38

Thank you and next, yeah. Which kind of brings us to the one that I've always found so weird. Um, this is one that I'd heard about. And I first heard about it, it was from the pickup artist community. And if you've not heard of these guys, these are people, these are, these are men. Sad, lonely, pathetic, maladjusted, miserable sons of bitches. And they came up with this idea of negging. But essentially, what they would do is they go up to a woman in a bar, and in order to get her to like them more, they say something negative, which puts that person, that woman, in the position of either having to defend herself or her choice, and then it kind of binds her to them in a conversation. So for example, a negging would be Wow, it's like, look at that, you look great in this outfit. It's weird that you picked that purse, though. You know, something along those lines. So I think, and again it's just a weird thing. And I don't understand why it works. But you read up on it, what'd you find out?

Cheryl Stuller: 16:41

Just like you said. Backhanded compliments. You look great now that you've lost weight.

Stasha Boyd: 16:50

Yeah, that's a tough one, though. Because a lot of people do that stupid thing with the, with the best of intentions, and it's just stupid. Folks can we just accept as a general rule? Unless somebody is begging you for your opinion on their weight specifically, keep your mouth shut about people's weight.

Cheryl Stuller: 17:05

Well, I've, I have people on social media that is posting their weight loss journey. And I'm very careful to say, um, because you know that's something that they chose that they wanted to do and, and they are really proud of themselves. So I'm, I'm very careful to say I'm really proud of your hard work. And I'm not really commenting, because I thought that person was beautiful as they were. But if they're on this weight loss journey, and they want to do that, I know how hard that is to stay committed to that. That's the impressive part to me. You're always beautiful to me. Um, it's impressive that you're able to stick with it.

Stasha Boyd: 17:49

For everybody listening. Cheryl would be good with, you know, if she's posting things about her weight or whatever, she would be okay with you like saying, congratulations, Cheryl. I, unless I am, you and I are sitting at a table. And I have told you, and I'm stone cold sober. And I've told you 15 different times swearing on a stack of Bibles. It's okay to talk about what I weigh, or how I look. Don't. Don't.

Cheryl Stuller: 18:14

But you're also the person that's not going to post your weight loss journey. Correct?

Stasha Boyd: 18:18

Um, I have before I have before, and like you said, it's like that whole idea of achieving something always felt good.

Cheryl Stuller: 18:28

But you don't want people, you would not want anybody commenting. If you were posting on social media about that. You would not want anybody commenting on it.

Stasha Boyd: 18:39

Noo. No, no.

Cheryl Stuller: 18:40

I would say don't post it on social media.

Stasha Boyd: 18:43

Well, yeah. But here's the thing. Like I said, there's two different things. The reason I wouldn't do it, why wouldn't comment is because I also know that there are people who post these things on social media, because they're just so painfully desperate for any type of approval. And they know this, like they've worked up in their mind that if they lose this weight, they're going to have more love, people are going to enjoy whatever's going to happen. They have this whole mash of good things in their head. That will occur if only and so the losing weight on the scale, that number becomes proof positive that they're doing some good. So I know a lot more women, especially women, most mostly women, whose internal horror stories of weight loss are not what are not the Hey, I've lost 10 pounds. It's not, it's nightmarish. And so for for me, I will stay away from that completely. Like you said, you know, if they're posting something on a weight loss, Hey, I'm down 20 pounds. And like you said, it's like, you know, man I'm proud. You set a goal, you achieved it. Awesome. I'm always happy for anybody that achieves a goal. But it will never be about their weight. It will never be about their look, but we're also getting way off topic because we're on negging, we got to stay on topic, Cheryl.

Cheryl Stuller: 19:57

Well, that's a bigger, that's a that's a good conversation to have like, what is appropriate about that? You know?

Stasha Boyd: 20:03

Yeah, but negging it is like, it is like a left handed compliment. Um, it actually is funny actually, I think I posted something on Facebook the other day. This was a couple of years ago, we're having dinner with with Mama, and Dad and whatever. And I don't know what prompted it. But Mama said, you know, Wow, your hair looks, your hair looks really good today. And I kind of went... How, you know, as opposed to when, and she was like, every other day. I'm like, here's the thing, my mother was not negging. She just has a way with words. She just has a way with compliments. But it is that kind of thing where somebody will say something that kind of has you baffled, and Well, that's a weird way to say that. What were some of the other examples that were in that article?

Cheryl Stuller: 20:52

Here's one. Your sister got a promotion at work? Maybe you'll find a fulfilling job as well.

Stasha Boyd: 21:00

Oh, I remember one that we saw that was on the list. Oh, that was a great report that you turned in, who helped you with it?

Cheryl Stuller: 21:07

Yeah. It's kind of a backhanded compliment stuff. My mom, my mom has done, you know, similar things. I don't think she means anything by it. And I don't address it, I take it for what it is. And then I move on.

Stasha Boyd: 21:24

Right. And I think that the thing too. For some of these things, you have to consider the source, and the relationship, you know, what is that relationship? I have, I know some people it's like that is, in a way, that's kind of their affection, they kind of doggin on their friends. I don't care for it. I don't do it to other people. But I do know that some people that is how they, how they talk and act, and they truly don't mean anything by it. But the ones who do, I think like you said, it goes back to that feeling. You have the feeling when somebody says something like that to you that you're like, wait, what? I'm sorry, what? Or it in some way makes you feel bad about yourself. So, like the person, the friend of ours, that they're doggin on their friends all the time, you laugh it off, because you know it's not true and you know they don't mean it that way. But if somebody is saying something, and it does make you doubt yourself, or it does make you feel bad, then again, that's that red flag is that your inside feeling like okay, this person has done this again. They said this rude thing again. And going back to the step process, first thing you do you call him out on it. Like, okay, I don't, here's what you just said, is that what you meant to say? Second, I don't appreciate that. Don't do that again, especially if it's a coworker or a person you're dating. I don't like it. Don't do it again. And then if they do it again, then you have to make a different choice, because they're not going to change.

Cheryl Stuller: 22:49

Yeah, and if they minimize it, if you come to them and do what you just said and they minimize it, or they always go Oh, well, I was just joking. You know, they are not taking that on as something that they actually heard you say, and they don't really care about the effect that it had on you. Again, thank you and next.

Stasha Boyd: 23:10

Right, because they don't respect you, that you know your mind. Whether or not they agree with it bothering you, like, it's not like the thing about like, the weight thing for me. I don't care if the weight doesn't bother you. I don't care if talking about weight or weight loss doesn't bother you. If I tell you, it bothers me, then don't do that to me. And if you do that to me, then me and you ain't gonna be seeing a lot of each other. That, to me, is kind of the main thing. But negging is, I think a lot of these little talk that we will talk about is you do have to kind of get to where you're pretty quickly able to identify a feeling. And going back to the whole, like whole life skill thing to learn. Learn how to identify your feelings, acknowledge what they are, and then take an action based upon what it's telling you. Don't sit there and wallow in it. If this person made you as you suddenly you find yourself feeling bad. And you realize it's because this person just insulted you in some weird way. Then don't keep feeling that.

Cheryl Stuller: 24:12

And don't take that on as your truth. That says more about them than anything about you.

Stasha Boyd: 24:19

Yeah, yeah, you felt bad and that was so but you don't have to feel bad for another second because that person was an asshole. You never have to feel bad for an asshole. You never do. And as soon as you recognize it, and you recognize where the source of it, is, think of it like putting your hand near that hot stove. As soon as you recognize that burner is on, move your hand.

Cheryl Stuller: 24:41

It can be a gut feeling. And we as women have that intuition. We have that gut feeling that sometimes we push down. And if it's happening in a setting where there's other people, and we just grin and bear it, you know, because there's other people there. I wouldn't even do that. I wouldn't even give that person that kind of pause then. You know, I would I would be like, did you just really say that, that way to me? Because you know how that makes me feel. Don't do that again.

Stasha Boyd: 25:11

And I, and that's the thing. It's like, there's you don't have to stand up and wave a flag, but you can certainly shine a spotlight. Like, did you really just say that because that was weird. That's a weird thing to say to somebody. And they've just been put on notice. It's not a fight, you're not like planting a flag in the ground, but you are letting the person know that I saw what you just did. And not gonna do that anymore. And if it is a closer friend, or somebody, a closer person to you, whether it's from a relationship standpoint, or from, um, here's one of the things that happens sometimes to people. It's the spouse of a friend, that friend is married to a jerk. And that jerk happens to like, you know, will take their jerkiness out on other people in the vicinity. And when it's happened to me like that? I just like, let the person know, No, we're not doing that.

Cheryl Stuller: 26:02

Or they do it to their spouse in front of you. And then you need to pull that person aside and say, you know, gosh, I really didn't like how he just said that to you or how they treated you. Are you okay with that?

Stasha Boyd: 26:15

Yeah. Yeah. And it's weird, because I think you and I have two different approaches to this one, I still call out the person in a way. Because for because again, this happened to us, we had a friend and they weren't the couple wasn't married, but they had been dating for a while. And he would just be so rude to her. We would be out at like our local wine bar or something. And everybody's sitting around talking. And he'd make some snotty comment either about what she was eating, what she was drinking, how she was sitting, what she was wearing. And it was just, it was just maddening. And you know, so whenever he would do that, I'd be like, I don't know what you're talking about. This is weird. Okay, she's, why aren't, why are you? Why are we even having this conversation because that's a weird thing to say. And he did not like me, and I did not like him. And when they finally broke up, and she started dating a guy who did treat her with some respect and dignity. Everybody was so happy. I still see this guy every now and then wandering around Publix, and he's, you know, he's still his sloppy old self, and still single. Single slobby self. He's not dating my friend anymore. So good.

Cheryl Stuller: 27:19

Good. Good, good, good.

Stasha Boyd: 27:21

Okay, here's another one. This is like bad behavior. And I just I don't understand this one. Ghosting? Where somebody just stops responding.

Cheryl Stuller: 27:31

Mm hmm. Usually, it's like, well, I shouldn't say usually, but the times that I have seen it happen, it hasn't been an established relationship. It's more like a new relationship, you know, or you're brought together for a circumstance. And when that circumstance goes away, you don't have any dealings with them anymore. But oftentimes, it happens with a one night stand that you didn't think would be a one night stand. And they sleep with you, and then you never hear from them again.

Stasha Boyd: 28:03

The ones that I've seen when I was talking with my friends about it, these are folks that they have been dating for a while.

Cheryl Stuller: 28:09

Really?

Stasha Boyd: 28:09

Yeah, they've been they've had one person who I was talking to, and she had been dating a guy for like, six months, seeing him regularly, like once or twice a week. And then one day, he just stopped responding. He unfriended her on Facebook, he didn't answer on Twitter. I mean, he just poofed out of her life, like, just gone. And then she would still see him on other people's Facebook things. And she'd send a note and like hey. And again, that's one of those things where I'm like, Why are you doing that? Why are you sending this asshole a note? Hey, do you remember me? He's not brain damaged. He's just an ass. It's like, yes, of course, he remembers you. Is he going to admit he remembers you? No.

Cheryl Stuller: 28:55

Because you want closure. You want an answer as to why somebody would do that. I haven't had, I haven't seen that with anybody that's been in that long term of a relationship. Oh, my God. So, what we're talking about ghosting is disappearing from somebody's life without any acknowledgement that you've had this relationship with them, whether it be one night or six months.

Stasha Boyd: 29:18

Yeah. And it's an absence of all communication. They don't contact you. They don't respond to your outreach to them. They don't respond to phone calls. They don't respond to text, they don't respond to email. It is just silence like they were never there. And that again, to me, the reason why again, so many people want to know the reason why and it's like, Okay, here's the reason why. They're an asshole. That's the only reason you need. It's like, well, maybe they were damaged. Or maybe I did this well, maybe maybe maybe, it's like no. You don't need, there is no deep thought you need to go down on this thing. If you, to me if I send somebody a text and they don't respond, you know, within a reasonable amount of time, now again I haven't been dating anybody. But if that happened to me, it would be like two or three extra texts. And then it'd be like, Oh, I don't think so. Yeah, no, no, that would not be. I might even I might look to see if they had actually, and especially I was seeing them pop up on other people's feeds or something. Hell no. No.

Cheryl Stuller: 30:21

Yeah. And usually it's a conflict avoidance, you know, people don't want to have that ownership of their behavior, and they don't want to have to talk about an honest feeling that they have, they don't want to deal with it. They don't want to deal with how you're going to react to it. They don't want to, you know, it's conflict avoidance. And I, there are a lot of people who do that. And I don't I don't understand that I really don't I, I cannot understand why you wouldn't value somebody enough that you would want them to know that things have changed, or that there's a problem, can we work it out? Or whatever it is, I don't understand that. You have often said that communication is a skill and a lot of people don't have it.

Stasha Boyd: 31:11

Right. And with this one, it's not their ability to communicate. It's their willingness, so we can add to asshole, coward. Asshole, coward. Again, we don't we don't. You and I've often said on this, that we're not actually psychologists or psychotherapists or anything of that nature. And here's the thing, unless you're actually one of those types of people. And this is actually a client of yours that you're working with. You are under no obligation to try and get to the bottom of why they're doing this. None. You don't need to know. It's like, well, could it be conflict avoidance? Or could it be that they had, you know, suffered some kind of tragedy? Maybe they don't have, you know, who gives a shit? All you need to know is that this person is behaving badly. Now, if you've had a conversation with them, and they don't respond, if they if you have tried to put something out there and they don't. And you're not getting back the basics of decency, just the basics. Got your email, Um, I don't want to have this conversation. Asked and Answered. What you've gotten, is you've gotten a response.

Cheryl Stuller: 32:21

At least that's an honest response versus not saying anything at all. You know, I'd rather that, than for somebody to not even respond to me at all and not say anything.

Stasha Boyd: 32:34

Right. And I think that's the it's one of the most callous things that someone can do that has absolutely no, no, no, no a character, they have very little character, because they don't care how you feel. They're not even enjoying watching you suffer, because they're not there. They just don't care that you are. And you know, what more do I need to know about somebody? What more do you need to know about somebody that they don't care at all that you're suffering?

Cheryl Stuller: 33:07

Exactly. If it's having a negative impact on you, any of these things that we're talking about? If it's affecting you negatively, if it's affecting your well being? Get yourself out of that situation.

Stasha Boyd: 33:22

Absolutely. Which actually kind of brings us to the next one, which and I discovered this one because I had not heard of this happening, but when we we're doing the research on it. This next one came in right after ghosting, and it's called submarining. When someone ghosts, then suddenly returns and acts like nothing happened. You've been ghosted, they've disappeared. They're not responding to anything. And then like, one month, two months, four or five months later, suddenly they reappear as if nothing happened, Hey, how you doing? Let's go, you want to go to the movies, hey, you know, it's like wanna go grab some dinner, or whatever it is, as if this large gap had not occurred. And at that point, it's the same situation, because I think a lot of times, like you were saying, people who want to know why are like, Oh, my God, they're back. I can ask them why. I have this opportunity to find out why. And then they get sucked back in to that same conversation. And they start thinking they were the crazy one. And it's like, no, if somebody submarines you, you need to torpedo that bitch, because there's no way that if they don't address or even acknowledge what they did, they have not changed, and they're going to do it again.

Cheryl Stuller: 34:35

They will absolutely do it again. And they're going to have their own selfish motivation for getting back in touch with you. I'm lonely now, I know I can reach out to so and so. And I'll probably get a response from them, you know. It has nothing to do with you and everything to do about where they are and who they are.

Stasha Boyd: 34:56

And I do want to make sure that there is a difference in this. So there are people who, and again, Facebook is good for this, that years ago, we just kind of fell out of contact with. Now if that person comes up, this is a whole different thing. This is like, if that person returns, then yes, it's up to you to decide if they are coming back. You know what that relationship was? What we're talking about is somebody who just deliberately ices you.

Cheryl Stuller: 35:23

That's different. Ghosting, in what we're talking about is different than that.

Stasha Boyd: 35:29

And submarining. So then there was another word that also kind of came up around ghosting, which I thought was an important one. And apparently this is a new phenomenon Cheryl, this is a new phenomenon. Caspering. And I hadn't either, but I found it on like four or five different sites, and a couple of them were on the mental health helpline site, but this one was one rather than simply ignoring your texts, the Casper will respond to your texts 12 or more hours later, with a vague but friendly reply. Instead of not replying to an invitation to hang out. The Casper will hint they're interested without any intention of following through. Now, here's the thing. That, to me, sounds an awful lot like breadcrumbing.

Cheryl Stuller: 36:14

Yeah, so what's the difference?

Stasha Boyd: 36:16

I think that what it is, is they start doing that with longer and longer intervals. And this is what the one site that I looked at says, they're longer, longer intervals, hoping that you'll get the hint and drop them. So it's supposedly a ghosting-light. They just respond less and less, they're more and more vague. So they're kind of like, fading away.

Cheryl Stuller: 36:38

Oh, they're fading. Okay, gotcha.

Stasha Boyd: 36:40

As opposed to just like ghosting. So what do you think of that one? What do you think of that tactic or strategy?

Cheryl Stuller: 36:48

Why can't we just be emotionally mature and have a conversation with somebody? My feelings for you have changed, or I don't feel a spark or this isn't going the way I want it to? Or I'm not ready for a relationship or whatever it is, that's going on with you. Why not just be honest about that? And, and not do that to somebody. I think we're afraid to like you have said several times, I really like this, we need to be comfortable with being uncomfortable and making other people uncomfortable. Not that you're trying to be mean, but you know that they're not going to like what you're gonna say, but you're saying it in a respectful and truthful way. Why isn't that okay?

Stasha Boyd: 37:31

Or at least respectful and honest way, you know, at least you're trying to like, you know, have a conversation. And again, other people don't have, their comfort is not your number one responsibility all the time. Now, as a friend, as a spouse, as a daughter, I mean, I want the people around me to be comfortable and happy around me, I don't bring up uncomfortable topics or subjects as a rule. I don't think the world needs to have my opinion on every damn thing at any moment of any day. So I do, try and check myself when I try, when I talk to people. This is different. This is you're noticing something weird. And again, you're getting that emotional feeling for some reason, you're feeling bad, this doesn't feel right. And then you go to that person and say, Okay, here's what I'm, here's what, here's what's happened, this, this and this. I'm feeling this way about it. What, what is your response? And then see what the response is? Again, like you said, if their response is like, Oh, you're making a big deal out of nothing, it's like, no, it was a big enough deal for me to come and talk to you about it. So it's not a big deal. And it's not nothing, because here's what you did. That's the thing. That's the conversation to have. And is that person gonna like any of that part of the conversation, no. And most people, by the way, just so you'll be prepared, because I've done this a lot. They're gonna get angry. They're, gonna get real annoyed. I care. But if I also care about me, and I care about what's happening, I can't let that be the reason that I stopped the conversation. And I think that's something that people don't understand, is that when you are bringing up something where you're you're feeling hurt, or you're feeling confused, the person who's hurting and confusing you, is not going to like it. I wouldn't like it if somebody said that to me. If somebody said, Stasha, you know, do you realize the last three times we got together you said blah, blah, blah. And I'd be like, No, did I? Are you sure? Oh, that's not what I meant. I would absolutely start explaining and justifying myself just like everybody else would, because I'm human. Now hopefully, I would like to think that I could also sit there and step back a little bit and evaluate myself. I could also say, Okay, let me think about that. I like to think all of those nice things about myself. And I think I do it fairly often. But I also have to admit that the chances of me being the same way as anybody else's are pretty good. So be again, be okay with them getting angry. And you can either continue the relationship, letting them get over their anger, or you can decide that that anger is too much and no, they can just get. Thank you, and next.

Cheryl Stuller: 40:06

So we're talking about somebody that you're kind of in a relationship, and they, and let's say you talked two or three times a week, and then all of a sudden, it's once every two weeks, and then it's once every three or four weeks, and then it's not at all and then, you know, that's kind of what caspering is correct?

Stasha Boyd: 40:25

I think so. But that also, to me sounds like an evolving relationship. That sounds like you know, okay, that's, that's the way some relationships just evolve and wind down. I mean, how does how is it with caspering?

Cheryl Stuller: 40:40

If it's a relationship, I would want to know what's going on with that. If it's just one of those fringe friendships that we talked about in the last episode? Then I'm okay with that. I don't need to, I don't need to know why you don't want to talk anymore. Um, but if it's somebody you're close to, and suddenly something has changed, I would want to have a conversation about that and know why.

Stasha Boyd: 41:05

Because it's entirely possible that you did say something to offend them.

Cheryl Stuller: 41:09

Yes, it and it's good to find that out.

Stasha Boyd: 41:11

It's possible that you did something or said something. Yeah. And they just either don't know how, or haven't figured out how to bring it up to you. So you give them the opportunity. So this caspering thing, I guess I'm kind of on the fence about whether or not that one's a really bad thing or not. It's like, I think for me, and Cheryl, tell me what you think about this one. I think, for me, I would use the feeling about it as my litmus test. If it stung a little but, eh okay, then I wouldn't I wouldn't worry about it, that's just normal behavior. But if it's something where it's like, I'm feeling really stung, it's like, okay, we had some intense conversations, we did a lot. We were volunteering together, we were doing all sorts of stuff. And then suddenly it changed and I don't know why. And it hurt, then I would open up the conversation, I would I would kind of let my feeling on it be my guide.

Cheryl Stuller: 41:58

And it could be an opportunity for personal growth. You know, if I did do something, and I'm not aware of it, I would want to know, if I could be a better person.

Stasha Boyd: 42:08

Yes. Couldn't we all my fine friend? I would say the next couple of them kind of like kind of come together a little bit. But one of them is cat, I mean, it's catfishing. And when I first heard of this, I was like, Wait, they're doing what? So catfishing is when somebody pretends to be somebody else on a dating app or online, to try and get, now extreme cases of it is somebody will pretend to be wealthy, better looking, they might say that they're 20. And they're actually 50. They might say that they have this mega job. And they basically have a part time job. And they're living in their mom's basement or something. They create a whole fantasy life to get somebody to interact with them. And that one kind of goes two directions. One direction is straight up fraud. They're trying to get your money. They're trying to get something from you. That's a that's a that's an actual fraud case. The others, and Cheryl, this blew me the hell away. They just do it for fun. It entertains them.

Cheryl Stuller: 43:14

So aren't they going to be found out at some point? Because obviously, you're gonna want to meet up with that person.

Stasha Boyd: 43:21

That's when they ghost

Cheryl Stuller: 43:23

Oh, okay.

Stasha Boyd: 43:26

I guess that's when they ghost, but.

Cheryl Stuller: 43:28

They're emotionally invested. But not, there's not a physical thing at that point. Correct?

Stasha Boyd: 43:35

Yeah, it's to me, it's almost like this person is an emotional troll. So the same way that people will go online and just troll people on Twitter or troll people on Facebook, just saying stuff to stir people up and just to like, make people, you know, basically just to be to be a jerk online. This person's doing it to be an emotional jerk. They're doing it to just just because they can because they can wrap somebody up like that, and then hurt them. That's, that's psycho. That's frickin psycho. So I would not want anybody to do if they if they start to suspect somebody's catfishing them. You don't owe that person anything. That person's a nut.

Cheryl Stuller: 44:14

Mm hmm. Is there, is that a crime? Like, can you report somebody for doing, I guess if it leads to the fraud thing?

Stasha Boyd: 44:23

Yeah, but that kind of emotional abuse? No, no, there's there's no crime being committed. You know, it's and again, if they're if they are like extorting money or something like that, it's still it's very hard to prove because they're saying it's like, hey, wow, they gave me money. It's like, you just gave me money. Like these Nigerian princes all over the place. That's kind of catfishing too. But um, but yeah, I think that was just a horrible one. Which by the way, is not to be confused with fishing. So fishing, Cheryl and this one cracks me up because we actually I know we know a guy here in town. When he was single, he would do this So what he would do is at late at night after the bars are getting ready to close and he's been hanging out with all these ladies and whatever at the bar, he would send every single one of them the same text. Hey, great seeing you tonight, want me to come tuck you in? All of them, he would send them all the same text and see whoever like, you know, responded first. If anybody else responded, he'd be like Aw man I changed my mind. I'm just gonna go home, go to bed. You have a good night, sweetheart. But he was fishing. And one night all the girls found out because the next day they got together, the same group got together for brunch. And they all, one of them said something about it and someone else said, I got that same text. I got-

Cheryl Stuller: 45:38

Oh my gosh.

Stasha Boyd: 45:39

That's, of course this guy is such a charming dude. They weren't even mad at him. They were just like, oh my god, I can't believe he did that.

Cheryl Stuller: 45:47

Ballsy, that is ballsy.

Stasha Boyd: 45:51

Yeah. But is that a is that a? Okay, here's the question. Is that a bad thing? Did that person do a bad thing or not?

Cheryl Stuller: 46:01

I think anytime you're not being respectful of somebody that you are saying, You are important to me, I value you, I want to be with you. And I also want to be with you and you and you. I don't think that's a good thing, no.

Stasha Boyd: 46:18

And, because none of these people thought they were in an exclusive relationship with him. You know, they all thought they were just gonna have like a little fun night with this person. As long as it's like, you're not lying to one person for somebody else. It's like, I'm going, I don't know that there's a problem. I'm like, Well, what don't you go fishing? Don't people go fishing all the time isn't? Yeah, like real fishing isn't sitting in boats with like, you know, worms on hooks. But I just don't. I think like you said it's the lie. It's like if somebody is being lied to, in order to make this happen. If somebody is being held out as a special relationship, and it's not, then the lie is what makes it a problem. If it's just you know, hey, I'm trying to quintuple my chances of getting laid tonight. Okay. I guess.

Cheryl Stuller: 47:08

And can we say STI?

Stasha Boyd: 47:12

Well, they should be using condoms. Anyway, that's just, that just go's.

Cheryl Stuller: 47:15

I would hope so. I would hope so. No, I would not want to be on the receiving end of him talking to Michelle, Sarah, and, um, you know, Bianca, come on.

Stasha Boyd: 47:28

And making it, and making it feel like you're special. Making sure, kind of implying that you're the special one. Yeah. Cuz it would hurt to find out that you weren't, I guess.

Cheryl Stuller: 47:43

You're a tool at that point, you know, tool for him. If you allow yourself to be that now, if you, now if it's a hookup and you say this is a hookup I only, this is all I want tonight is a hookup. Then that's a whole different thing, that is not fishing.

Stasha Boyd: 48:01

Okay. All right, we're gonna give that one a half pass, half pass, we're gonna let the line be, are you lying to get something? And if you're using somebody as a tool, then you're lying. But otherwise, it's like, okay, all right, as long as everybody's cool. So the last one, here's the last one that's on our list. And this one, I think is an important one. Because I had not heard this term. And when somebody mentioned it the other day, I'm like, Oh, I know so many people who need to hear this one. Fleabagging. So have you heard of the show Fleabag? Very, very popular show. It's a British show. But basically, the main character constantly dates the wrong people. So fleabagging is a person who constantly and repeatedly dates people who are completely unsuitable for them. They're just either they're wrong for you. They're either their personality is wrong, their behavior is wrong. What they do is doesn't match your lifestyle, whatever it is. It's like that, like the people, the woman who really wants to have that, you know, close, nurturing, loving type of, you know, homebody husband, but she keeps dating, flyboy jocks who are trying to date 15 people all the time. You know, going, Oh I can change them.

Cheryl Stuller: 49:18

Or, you're saying Why do I keep going after emotionally unavailable men, you know, that kind of thing?

Stasha Boyd: 49:24

Yes. So do you know anybody who does that? Do you know anybody who needs to hear that? Those words, to stop doing that?

Cheryl Stuller: 49:30

Ah, yeah.

Stasha Boyd: 49:36

One or two, one or two.

Cheryl Stuller: 49:38

One or two. Yeah, yeah.

Stasha Boyd: 49:40

The challenge with that one, though, is what do you say? I mean-

Cheryl Stuller: 49:47

So, I've had this conversation and I've said, You, so it would be good if you examine why you keep choosing that type of person. So it really comes down to you. Why are you doing that? What is it about you, your past experience or something that you're trying to fill a void from, from your childhood, what what is it? Why do you keep choosing this type of person?

Stasha Boyd: 50:11

And how and how did they respond to that? When you, when you ask that, how do they respond?

Cheryl Stuller: 50:16

Um in a positive way. You know, she says, I don't know, I don't know why I keep doing that. I don't know why I keep doing that.

Stasha Boyd: 50:29

And there's also a distinction that I want to make real clear here. I'm talking that the person knows this, that the guy is unsuitable. It's not that I think they're unsuitable. That's a whole different conversation. I'm like, why are you going out with this guy, he is just a jerk. If they really like him or whatever, that's fine. That's, that's not my business. But it's when they realize they keep getting hurt by the same type of person over and over and over again. And then they go out and find another one just like them. That's that's the thing. I think it goes back to that, you know, you have to become emotionally aware, mentally aware, so that you can explain your own behavior to yourself. You know, you don't owe me or Cheryl an explanation, obviously. But, you know, you need to be able to articulate it to yourself.

Cheryl Stuller: 51:16

Well, but I hope you're gonna say something if

it's somebody you care about: 51:18

Well, honey, this is, this is? Yeah. This person did the same thing the last person did.

Stasha Boyd: 51:27

Yeah. Well, I think it becomes, it's, like, where are they in my little circle of friends. It's like, you know, if they're just like, you know, the great circle, the broad background kind of thing. I might not say anything to that person, unless I hear the same complaint four or five times in a row and then I go like, Didn't you just, is this the same guy, because we're still talking about the same thing. But I don't think that would be an in depth heart to heart, because that's just too intimate. But if this is somebody who's like, dinner party friend, staying at my house, definitely, I mean, this is somebody I'd be like, Okay, why are we here again? Can you explain to me why we're having this conversation again? Because I'm not understanding it.

Cheryl Stuller: 52:03

It's hard for me to see you sad or upset. And yet, here we are again, you know, let's look at it.

Stasha Boyd: 52:10

Yeah. And I think that's the main thing is like, because you're not, you're not trying to get them to, you know, admit a mistake. And I think that's an important thing to understand. What you're trying to get them to do is to see a pattern of behavior, and then decide if they don't want that pattern to keep repeating. Now, if they do, then you have to decide whether or not you want to keep listening to the complaints. Like when I had that super depressing thing happen back all those years ago, and I quit dating, and my friend came over, and she's like, you know, I have been here with you on this problem over and over again. I will make appointments for the therapist for you, myself, I will go with you to your first visit if you want me to. She's like, but I'm never having this conversation with you again. And she said it in the most direct, straightforward, caring, loving way. But she was serious. She wasn't playing around, you know, cuz I was devastated. I was like, sitting on my back porch. You know, I hadn't gotten dressed in four or five days, I was crying constantly over this awful, unsuitable person breakup. And, um, and she had been there before she'd seen it happen before. And she's like, and she's the person that I really credit with getting me, you know, out of that mental break, because she came over and said, I keep watching this happen. I've talked to you about it. I apparently can't help you. Nobody can help you. Maybe a therapist will help you. And they did. Yeah.

Cheryl Stuller: 53:35

And that's that was how she supported you. That was great.

Stasha Boyd: 53:39

Yeah, that was that was a good friend. That was a very good friend. Well, that is the end of our list. Is there anything else that kind of came up? What's the thing about this list that you think is the most important takeaway for our visitors? Oh, we didn't do our thing. Why is it so important thing to talk about? Why? Why do we think this is an important topic Cheryl?

Cheryl Stuller: 53:55

I think it's important because these little seemingly small behaviors that really aren't small, if they are affecting your well being if they are affecting your confidence, if they are affecting your relationship. It's it's a time to self reflect and decide, do I still want to be in this situation with this person? Yeah. And if I do, how am I going to navigate that? Am I going to stand up for myself? Am I going to say, this is what you're doing? You you it's unacceptable? I'm not moving forward with you if this continues, or are you just gonna exit? It depends on what that situation is. The other side of that is, if you allow these seemingly little things to happen, oftentimes it leads into other abusive behavior, whether it's financial, whether it's emotional, whether it's physical, it usually and I could say usually a high percentage leads to something else.

Stasha Boyd: 54:58

Yeah. And I would say that for me, the the thing that's most important about it is that the solution to every single one of these is in you, they are all in you, because these people fixing their bad behavior is not going to happen, they are going to continue doing this. If they're if they're, you know, doing it, they're gonna keep doing it. Assholes are going to keep assholing. That's just what they do. And you don't need any deeper meaning. You don't need to super analyze, you don't have to sit there and pull and go into your own psyche. Why do I keep doing this to myself? You don't have to do any of that. All you have to do is say it stops today. This is my day. It stops today. One way or another. And I think that's the main thing for me that I think is important is, especially for women our age, in their mid 50s, a lot of women are re-entering the dating world, you know, they're having a confidence issue already. There are a lot of men out there who are our age who are out there dating, and they're single for a reason. You know, they might, they're, they're not, they're not the I'm telling you, it's like they're they're not the good one that got away. Most of them. They're single for a reason. And so as a woman who is in our age that's in whether it's a dating relationship, or even a friendship, friendships change as your life changes. You get to decide how you want to handle things that hurt you or confuse you. And for me, number one, learn to have an awkward conversation.

Cheryl Stuller: 56:27

And be okay with that person being upset with you, or denying that it's happening. A lot of times when stuff like that happens, it affects your own emotional confidence. And you and you minimize for yourself. Because this person is great doing this or because we have this great thing together. That little thing, I'm going to let that go. And that's really an unkindness to yourself. So have the have the confidence that if is if it is affecting your well being? Then you need to own that and take care of that.

Stasha Boyd: 57:07

Absolutely. So that is that's this show. Our next show, Cheryl, Cheryl, so excited. Our next topic because once again, I'm so proud of us. I'm so proud, we actually put it into the notes. Because the next next one is dropping around Halloween. The topic is fear.

Cheryl Stuller: 57:24

Fear. Fear of what?

Stasha Boyd: 57:26

Well, we have talked about, you know, Halloween fear is fun, you know, um, but being afraid of general life, a lot of people kind of like walk around being afraid of things. So I'm afraid of this, I'm afraid of that. I'm afraid of that. Learning how to deal with fear, real fear and imaginary fear is an important part of life and knowing how to do it. So I think that's a really important one. And for me, I believe that a lot of it comes back to language and the way you talk to yourself and the way you talk to other people and the way you narrate your own life. So that's what we'll talk about, fear.

Cheryl Stuller: 57:58

Okay, that will be fun to explore.

Stasha Boyd: 58:00

Yes. All right, everyone. That's our show today we are so grateful as always as always that you are joining us please if you do leave a comment for us on Facebook or Instagram. We are we responding to them like I make sure I responded to a whole bunch today. Please respond to leave us a note. Also if you try to leave us, we really like reviews on Spotify or iTunes or Apple or wherever you listen to us on and if you do and they're not showing up, please send me a note and let us know and so I can get it fixed because I won't know about it if I don't know I don't know about it. I can't fix it.

Cheryl Stuller: 58:36

Alright everybody have a great week. We enjoy you.

Stasha Boyd: 58:39

We enjoy you, enjoy you, talk to you later. Bye.

Cheryl Stuller: 58:42

Bye.