Gaslighting: It isn’t you; it's never you. It's them.

Sometimes recent events bring up a subject that grabs us by the heart and we need to talk about it. Gaslighting—a specific type of psychological abuse, usually directed at women in order to control them—is one of those topics.

What is it? What are the signs? What can you do if someone is gaslighting you? What should you do if you suspect a friend is being mentally or emotionally abused?

From intimate relationships to family dynamics to the workplace, this often-invisible abuse ruins lives. We firmly believe we have an obligation to speak up and reach out when we see the signs of gaslighting, so we will.

This week we get serious about a serious subject. Lean in and listen up.

Due to the serious nature of this topic, here are some important resources.

Domestic Violence Hotline Website: Gaslighting 

If you or someone you know is in immediate danger of domestic violence, call 911 or otherwise seek emergency help. Anyone who needs advice or support can contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline 24/7 via:

• phone, at 800-799-7233
• live chat, at thehotline.org
• text, by texting LOVEIS to 22522

Many other resources are available, including helplines, in-person support, and temporary housing. People can find local resources and others classified by demographics, such as support specifically for People of Color, here:

• The Office on Women’s Health
• The National Coalition Against Domestic Violence

Additional episode resources:

• Examples of gaslighting: Medical News Today (2020)
• What Is Gaslighting and How Do You Deal With It? Forbes Health (2021)
• The Sociology of Gaslighting—American Sociological Association, author Paige L Sweet, Harvard Postdoctoral Fellow (2019)

Stasha’s Watermelon Mocktail

·         1 C fresh seedless watermelon

·         ½ squeezed fresh lime

·         5-10 fresh mint leaves

·         4-6 oz seltzer water (I used Perrier Lime)

 Muddle the watermelon and mint in a tall glass

Add ice then seltzer and lightly stir

If you want to make it into a cocktail, add 1.5 oz of Vodka

Cheryl’s Apple Cider Mimosa

·         I Bottle of champagne 

·         1 cup of apple cider

·         Cinnamon and sugar for the rim if desired

 Fill champagne flute ¼ cup of apple cider 

Top off with champagne 

Transcript

Stasha Boyd  00:01

Hi there, I'm Stasha.

Cheryl Stuller  00:03

I'm Cheryl.

Stasha Boyd  00:05

And between us we

Cheryl Stuller  00:05

have four kids,

Stasha Boyd  00:07

three businesses,

Cheryl Stuller  00:08

two husbands, and one goal:

Stasha Boyd  00:10

To get to The Point of the Matter. 

Cheryl Stuller  00:11

Gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse that somebody can use to gain control over somebody. And it usually tries to highlight an imbalance of power in the relationship. So they use it to gain control over someone.

Stasha Boyd  00:32

But I think the thing is, is that when you have somebody who is in a situation where somebody is, you feel like you're living in the twilight zone, I think that's maybe a difference. But if somebody was deliberately trying to mess me up, I think one of the things that you kind of recognize about it is that you keep going, this isn't real, this doesn't feel right. Hello, Cheryl. 

Cheryl Stuller  00:56

Hi Stasha.

Stasha Boyd  00:58

How goes it?

Cheryl Stuller  00:59

How goes it with you? You go first.

Stasha Boyd  01:02

That is, yeah, how does it go with me? We've had a fairly uneventful week, um, other than the fact that I really fell off of my dialing back on the alcohol week. And it's all because it was all these fun things that just presented themselves. So I'm kind of having to pull things back in. I'm going with a little watermelon refresher this evening as a watermelon mocktail, which is basically muddled watermelon with a little bit, I put a little kombucha in it, and sparkling water. So I'm going to give my liver a break again. Get myself pulled back together. And how about you?

Cheryl Stuller  01:38

I'm giving my liver a break as well. And, but I did post for fall, if you put like a quarter cup of apple cider in a champagne flute, and then top it off with champagne. That's a really fun and light, fall drink. And very simple to make, inexpensive, you know.

Stasha Boyd  02:01

That sounds really good. Yeah,

Cheryl Stuller  02:03

Well, if you will indulge me for a second, um, I think this might be useful to our listeners, which is why I'm going to bring it up. I have been having a lot of heavy emotional stuff happen lately. And when you have that kind of thing happen, you can tend to get tired of fighting back and you lose your confidence in everything. And I had a conversation with somebody on Thursday. And, and something this person said to me, just really kicked me in the gut. And I carried that around with me for two days. And I thought, you know, why am I letting this person affect me and my day, and I'm carrying this around like a cape, you know, it's covering me up? Why am I doing that? So I really just had to have a really heart to heart with myself and say, you know, you get to have your feels, and you get to process through that. But you don't have to let it define your day, and make everything else not feel good. And so I am going to talk about gratitude a little bit and just say, I am so grateful for the friends that I have that I can talk to about anything, and that love and support me and wouldn't have done something like that, to me. I'm gonna focus on that, because that's a really positive way to move forward. And I think by thinking about gratitude, and what I'm grateful for and what I have in my life, it helps me be more positive and kind of see that, you know, things are going to be okay. They're hard, but they're going to be okay. And I'm going to get through this. 

Stasha Boyd  03:44

Yeah, well, and it's all so many things. First of all, thank you for that. Because again, what is important to remember when things are going nutty, that it's like A: friends can observe things in you that sometimes you don't see yourself, they can say things that will give you something, something to think about. And then we can have awareness and walk around and think about those things without being defensive and upset, and all of these different things. And so it's all part of this big process, without giving into toxic positivity, which is Oh, Cheryl, everything's gonna be fine. Everything's great. You're so strong, or the other side of it, which is Oh my God, you're so right. You're so right, this is so hard. You have a person who kind of said, it's like, you know, hey, you've got options here. And you went, let me think about that. What are my options? And you came back with with making decisions and that's, that's, that's normal life.

Cheryl Stuller  04:38

Yeah, I get that a lot. And I don't think that's a good thing to say to people. I've heard that a lot. Cheryl, you're such a strong person. Everything's gonna be okay. It's okay to not be okay. And sometimes, things are not okay. 

Stasha Boyd  04:56

No, they're not. I'm going to jump in on this because it's very it's it's almost, it's not funny, but it's kind of comes around. So I also had another friend had a very, very big setback earlier this week. And I was, we were waiting for an answer to something. And I had gone out and I purchased two cards. The first card was, congratulations, you got this. And I put, on the back of that card, I put a big smiley face. And on the other card, that was one that had nothing on the back of the card. But what it said on the inside was, it's okay to not feel okay. That's and that's literally what it said, because that is true. We don't have to be, everything's not great every minute of every fucking day and it doesn't have to be.  

Cheryl Stuller  05:43

Well, and don't dismiss people. It's kind of dismissing people to say you're strong, you're a strong person, therefore everything is going to be okay. That's not always the case. And that's okay. It's okay to have those weak moments where it's not okay. Um, I would prefer somebody say to me, what can I do to be of help to you, you know, what do you need right now that would be helpful to you? Instead of dismissing me by saying, you'll be fine, you're a strong person, you know. That's not helpful.

Stasha Boyd  06:16

Yeah. And actually, it's kind of because we'll probably talk about this a little bit in today's episode, because today's episode topic is about gaslighting. And at some point, there are some things that are really close to gaslighting that they can be confused with it. And to me, that's one of them. If somebody is insisting that a problem, that something that's a real problem is not a problem because they don't want to get involved or because they don't have that much weight to carry. That's another type of gaslighting that's, that's different from what we're talking about today, but it still has merit to discuss. So, I say let's get into today's topic, because today's topic for our guests is gaslighting. And Cheryl has a lot of understanding and knowledge of this from working within the Guardian Ad Litem community. So this was really a topic I think that was important to you. And for me to just kind of like dump my little two cents first and then I want to get into Cheryl's because it's much it's much more in depth. I think it's an important topic for two reasons. Number one, a lot of women in our age range, because of the way we were raised in the 70s, and the 80s. And even in some cases into the 90s, we have a tendency to second guess ourselves a lot, because we were always told to act like a lady and don't do this and always be smiling. And, you know, the idea of female hysteria was was a real thing. And so a lot of us internalized. And now here people are in their 50s. And they have to deal with it. So, so for me, I think that's an important thing. Also, for me, just briefly, is I think some of the recommendations that people give are still kind of missing the mark. And we'll talk about that when we get to recommendations, but you tell us about about your thoughts.

Cheryl Stuller  07:55

So, gaslighting. Gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse that somebody can use to gain control over somebody. And it usually tries to highlight an imbalance of power in the relationship. So they use it to gain control over someone. When I used to work, I worked in the courtroom, and we would have to talk to the defendant and the victim. And it's, it's so interesting to talk to two people that were in the same room at the same time, have very different stories about what happened. And that can be based on a lot of things. And one of them, one of the things that that can be based on is what that dynamic is in the relationship. Are you afraid of that person, so you're not going to give the whole story that might get that person in trouble? And that's one of the signs of is that person being gaslighted possibly in that relationship? Because they don't want to get that person in trouble. Um, so you it's really important to ask if you have a friend or a loved one that you think might be experiencing this, it's very important to ask follow up detailed questions, you know, don't just listen to the story, pick up on what they're saying to you and follow up with more detailed questions that will give you detailed answers potentially.

Stasha Boyd  09:28

And that's the thing too, I think, you know, it is a matter of pattern. It's a repeat pattern of behavior. And I found this one, this other definition too, that I absolutely love. And I'm gonna pull that up real quick. Basically, a form of psychological manipulation that hinges on creating self-doubt. And, you know, you talk about a thing that a lot of women have, and it's the huge amounts of self doubt. You know, whether it's over their weight, whether it's over their career, are they a good mother, are they a good spouse, I mean, there are all of these ways that just society and we talked about society a little bit in general, already is creating, trying to create this this type of self doubt within a person. What a gaslighter will do is they take those things and make them deliberately worse. And I want to make that real distinction that that's a gaslighter is somebody who does it deliberately. Some people are just assholes. Some people are just such absolutely obnoxious, toxic assholes, they just do it because it's who they are. But somebody who's gaslighting you is doing it for a purpose. And that purpose is usually their own gain in some way. And sometimes that gain might just be their own entertainment. But other times it might be control over you, control over your finances, control over your friends, something in that power dynamic that they want to keep themselves on top, and their victim underneath.

Cheryl Stuller  11:00

And it can be, you know, you can do this, you can do this politically, you can do this racially, you can do this in the workplace. It doesn't just to have, it doesn't just have to be an intimate partner relationship. Um, you know, I would say that my brother would be somebody that has tried to do this to me, you know, he, he said this thing, and then years later, we talk about this thing and and he says, Well, that's not what I said. And I said it is absolutely what you said, it is absolutely what you meant. And this is how that made me feel. And so um, it never, the other thing is trying to talk to a person who does that. You're never going to gain any kind of understanding or closure or anything, because they're not going to give it to you, you know?

Stasha Boyd  11:58

And they're waiting, part of what they want is they want you to agree with their version of reality. That's pretty important for them. For that, for you to finally break down and go like, Oh, well yeah, I guess you may be right, maybe, maybe I'm wrong, maybe you're right. And that's that kind of breaking down of your own ability. And actually, you just kind of mentioned something there that, to me is kind of an important thing. One of the things about preventing gaslighting, they talk about ways to fight back and those are they're listed in all sorts of articles you and I in our research, we kind of kept kept coming up with these, the number one way to prevent a gaslighter from gaslighting you, or a bully from bullying you or an asshole from assholing you is basically to develop within yourself, the ability to not accept bullshit in no matter what form it comes at you. If somebody is trying to like you know, if they're saying something that's clearly bullshit, you call it out. That's nonsense. I'm not here to tolerate it. You get, and then with your own mind be able to recognize the distinction about why. But at some point, if you're able to kind of, if you just kind of get into the habit of saying Yeah, no, I'm, what you're saying right now is untrue. And I will and I do not have to accept it. I think what's happened to so many women and men this happens to men as well is that they become conditioned to think of themselves as somehow less than the other person.

Cheryl Stuller  13:25

Well, and that's the part of that emotional manipulation that starts to happen. So let's talk about what are some of the things somebody can do? What are the signs that somebody might be gaslighting you? They accuse you of lying or making things up. Okay, they refuse to listen to your concerns. They accuse you of being confusing or not making sense when you're trying to explain something. They claim that your memories are incorrect. That's, you know, kind of what my brother was doing. Denies having said or done things that they obviously, you remember, they have done these things.

Stasha Boyd  14:04

And a lot of times that there are, there's evidence that they've done. It's like they have done it, there is evidence, and yet they're gonna stand there and look you square in the face and say, Oh, no, I didn't do that.

Cheryl Stuller  14:14

I didn't do that. I didn't say that. Or they trivialize concerns that you might have that you, you're, you know, there's an obvious problem you're talking to them about that and they just trivial trivial? How do you say that, trivial? Trivialize? 

Stasha Boyd  14:30

Yeah, it wasn't hard yesterday. I don't know why- 

Cheryl Stuller  14:32

I know. Or they accuse you of overreacting. So I think a master gaslighter is Trump.

Stasha Boyd  14:44

Yeah, I think that is, that is part of it. It's like there were and there are a lot of those those types of personalities that you can find in history. Whether it's Trump, whether it's Hitler, whether it's Chiang Kai-shek. I mean, all sorts of these, these larger than life characters who basically created their own reality by saying the most outrageous things and then getting enough people to see it in their best interest to believe those things. But one of the things you just said a minute ago was about being told that you're hysterical. And this is kind of where the gendered aspect of it comes into most of the time, this type of gas light, light gas lighting, now I can't say gas lighting, either most of it is directed towards women. And when it's directed towards men, there's a feminizing quality to it. Oh, my god, you're acting just like a woman. You're being hysterical. Oh, my god, you're such a girl, you lose your keys all the time. I mean, there's this. And again, if this is part of a pattern of behavior, and it's done deliberately, then that is part of what it is, this idea of not being that your own mind has betrayed you. That oh my god, I can't remember things correctly. Or oh my gosh, you know, you're right, I am so stupid, I keep losing. There was one example that I saw is like, there was a person, there was a gas, gas, lighting his wife. And what he would do is he would hide his wife's keys, and then accuse her of losing them again. And then she would be late, he'd be like, I can't No, I'm not taking you to work, it's not my fault, you lost your keys, come to find out this person was taking and hiding her keys, to make her feel stupid and incompetent, and to get her in trouble at work and to be able to control her around other things. Um, so that tiny, and it's hard to believe it's like, you know, I would say Who the hell would do some who would do that? That's part of the problem when people turn to their friends. Because their friends say this sounds so bizarre. Who would do that? Are you sure you didn't just lose your keys? I mean, cuz seriously, that sounds messed up. And then that group doesn't believe you.

Cheryl Stuller  16:50

So you're getting it from all sides. So let's talk about that a little bit. If you feel like you, if this is happening to you, what are some of the ways that you can make sure that that's, you know, what your, what your knowing is happening? You know, like, I, I didn't lose my keys, I know where I left them, take a picture of them, or write it down in a journal or record a voice memo on your phone or something like that? That you can go here. I know where I left my keys. Now, where are they? You know?

Stasha Boyd  17:25

The only thing I caution about that, and this is where I think I said earlier that I think some of the suggestions that came out of some that I saw in some of these articles, I believe, feed back into that crazy making Twilight Zone kind of living. So one of them was things like you know, keep a journal, write down your thoughts and experiences. And I'm like, Okay, I think keeping a journal is a great thing to kind of, for helping yourself and whatever. But if you're keeping a journal, so that you can have a witness to your own mind. And you're can hold up some evidence to convince somebody else that you're not nuts. That's another way to me, that would be another way of making me crazy. I'm like, why am I writing this shit down? I don't have to write this down.

Cheryl Stuller  18:08

Yeah, but well, let me stop you but you're thinking with a rational mind right now. When somebody is in an abusive relationship, it is hard to think with a rational mind. And so I would encourage you to do the things that we just said just because you are trying to get out of that hole that that person is trying to put you in. Okay. And that's a way to do it for yourself it doesn't mean you have to show it to the other person or convince the other person because we've already said that's probably not going to help at all. Yeah, but it can help you develop that instinct and confidence to say, I feel like this is happening. How am I going to convince myself that it's not and that's a way to do that.

Stasha Boyd  18:57

And I think that's the important thing then for the for folks who are who do suspect this is going on to remember that you're not doing it for them, you're not doing it to convince this person to not be this person. You're only doing it for yourself and you're only doing it as long as you need to convince, to make sure that you are aware that no you're not insane. You're not silly. The other thing too is like one of them was like the taking pictures. Some of the things that I mentioned before like in hacks you know how I take pictures of things so like, I that's not a thing that's nothing I do that too all the time to remind myself of stuff. Where I parked my car. Here's the magazine article I want to remember. Here's, you know, whatever it is, and some things are just good habits to get into as if you know how your brain is because I happen to be a person who is very forgetful about certain things. I don't remember birthdays. I do not. I cannot keep my hands on my keys. We actually have a I have a key rack that was given to me by a former roommate who got it because he threatened to surgically graft my keys to my body, I would lose them all the time. Um, but that is a true thing about me. And I don't know why that is. But we came up with a solution. But I think the thing is, is that when you have somebody who is in a situation where somebody is, you feel like you're living in the twilight zone, I think that's maybe a difference. It's like, I didn't feel like I was living in the twilight zone, I just felt like this was just a thing. But if somebody was deliberately trying to mess me up, I think one of the the things that you kind of recognize about it is that you keep going, this isn't real, this doesn't feel right, I. And I think if you feel that, then it makes sense to say, I'm going to write this down, I'm going to tether myself with this journal, I'm going to tether myself with this thing, until I can show myself that I'm not the one that's crazy here.

Cheryl Stuller  20:50

Exactly, exactly. And then I would seek out a therapist who is experienced in that realm that can help you emotionally deal with your side of that, you know.

Stasha Boyd  21:04

So many people can't afford therapy though, what do those folks do?

Cheryl Stuller  21:09

There's support groups that are free, there is the National Domestic hotline, which is free and they can hook you up with people that maybe offer things at a discounted or free, you know, rate. So there's there's options, they can hook you up with resources. 

Stasha Boyd  21:25

We'll make sure that we put those in our show notes for for anyone and that's an important thing to to have in there, whatever resources that we can can think of. Because I think the same thing too, is when you are when you are starting to try to find help. A lot of time, that's when a person who's truly abusive gets more abusive. If they see you try to pull yourself together, if they see you trying to garner friends, if they see you trying to get help, that's when it goes from that from being entertaining to them to to harm you to being a threat to their identity, if you're able to get away. And that's a big thing to understand about any abuse, whether it's psychological, physical, keeping your ability to that just showing that you're fighting back or, or getting a hold of yourself in a way. Um, keep that from the person you suspect of doing the abuse.

Cheryl Stuller  22:17

Absolutely, and it's important, very, very important to have a safety plan that includes an exit plan when you're ready, okay, and this all has to be done when you are ready to do it. Okay. And oftentimes domestic violence shelters and centers, like we have Safelight where we are, you can reach out to them and they can help you put together a safety plan so that you are safe, when you try to get out of that relationship. Because you're right, when you start to stand up for yourself, when you want to leave the situation is when oftentimes, it turns more dangerous. You have to do it in a safe way. And you have to have resources that can help you already set up, you know, that's part of that safety plan to exit in the best way that you can.

Stasha Boyd  23:10

And that's also a good thing to kind of understand the continuation of things. People who truly do not have your best interests at heart, they don't get better. If somebody is either being intentionally rude to you, or intentionally gaslighting you or intentionally just being mean to you or thoughtless in general, you reminding them of that is not going to make them be a better person. 

Cheryl Stuller  23:33

No, it's not going to change that person.

Stasha Boyd  23:35

It's not going to change them. So your your situation a person's situation may not have progressed from you know, basically bad and rude behavior, controlling behavior to actual physical violence yet, and who knows it might never do that. But chances are most abuse escalates to something. And if you're if you do find yourself in an abusive situation, one of the things that you can tell yourself is that it doesn't get better. Because a lot of times again, going back the way the way these kind of gaslighters and abusers will act is if they do see something they'll get better a little better for a little while. Oh, you're right, Honey, I'm so sorry. I didn't know I was making you feel that way. I didn't mean to do that. And then a week goes by and the next thing you know, it's like you've lost your keys again. Something comes up. Oh, another one too, that I wanted to mention, because I think this one is a very hot topic. And it's very personal to me because I I've gotten this a lot in my life. Um, I can usually shut it down pretty quickly, but you're being hysterical.

Cheryl Stuller  24:39

You need to calm down. 

Stasha Boyd  24:41

You need to calm down. 

Cheryl Stuller  24:42

How many times have I heard that?

Stasha Boyd  24:45

And I'm like, Yeah, no, no, there's no part of me right now that needs to calm down.

Cheryl Stuller  24:51

It's okay for you to be whatever you need to be in that moment. As long as you're not being violent. You get to you get to react and feel your feels as much as you want to. Don't tell me to calm down.

Stasha Boyd  25:07

Perfect, you know, everybody can have a bad moment. I mean, I've had moments when I'm having arguments with Mike or somebody else where it's like, Yeah, it probably could have benefited the situation, if I calm down a little bit, it won't help the situation to tell me to do so. But, that's also, you know, again, for folks who are not in those situations, or who are wondering, or who are coaching somebody, or teaching or counseling someone to teach a person early on, to develop the ability to One: know themselves. You know, I'm just loud. I'm just aggressive. You know, I'm not hysterical. You don't like me being loud and aggressive? Well, that's different. I'm not out of control. I'm Number Two: realize that people can say anything they want to you, you don't have to accept it. It's like you're being hysterical. I don't accept that. You're being you need to calm down. I'm not gonna accept that either. Well, let me give you this argument. No, I don't have to accept that. And I'm not going to. Part of that, I think is one of the things that you know, again, women of our age, when we were younger, oh, no, no, no, no, no. Anytime a woman, a girl was in any way standing up for themselves. They were bossy, they were rude. They were, you know, pushy.

Cheryl Stuller  26:24

Or they'd call you a bitch.

Stasha Boyd  26:26

Yeah. And again, as you start to get into your teens, and your twenties, yeah, you're being bitchy. And that is part of the reason why not. And again, I don't wanna say that all of that is part of some grand patriarchal thing to keep women down. Because I think that's a, I personally find that to be a little bit too overblown, in the in the conversation, but to recognize when that type of thought process is being used against you.

Cheryl Stuller  26:53

Well, and really, I don't think that should be a thing anyway, if you're, if you truly respect somebody, and you view them as an equal, then those words won't even come out of your mouth.

Stasha Boyd  27:07

Yeah, but they don't, they don't really respect them.

Cheryl Stuller  27:09

Well, that's where that comes in. Exactly, exactly. Right.

Stasha Boyd  27:13

But I think that, and I wanted to kind of go in to there were some of the other things that I saw on this other list that I thought were really good, because another one that I'll get is tone policing. They won't argue with what you're saying, they'll start arguing with your tone. I don't like your tone. Don't give a shit if you like my tone or not. I choose my tone, if you want to make an argument about what I'm saying, or my memory fine. But a lot of times they will a person who's doing who, anytime you make any kind of rational comment they come back with. It's not a matter of what you're saying. It's how you're saying it. Yeah, that's and I find that to be a pretty, pretty strong one. The same thing is when they um, they're withholding. If you say something that you don't like, then they'll just shut up. Or they'll give you the silent treatment, or they will hold something from you that you need. Um, okay, fine. Well, I'm not going to give you you know, we're not going to give you the grocery money this week.

Cheryl Stuller  28:07

Right? some form of control. Yeah.

Stasha Boyd  28:11

Were there anything else on like, the behavior list that we saw that we thought were really interesting? You talked about trivializing?

Cheryl Stuller  28:20

Yeah. Um, well, let's talk about what a person might be the person who is being gaslighted might look like so that you can recognize it from the other side. Okay, yeah, Constantly second guessing yourself. We kind of talked about that quite a bit. Often feels confused. Yeah. Crazy. He thinks I'm crazy. Am I crazy? Difficulty making simple decisions. Blames themselves for being too sensitive. Or being too emotional.

Stasha Boyd  28:56

Yes. And that's an important I want to get into too emotional. And also says that they're crazy. Um, any type of psychological putting down of themselves, you know me I'm just so forgetful. Oh, god, I'm just like, just I'm just insane. I can't I that poor man. I don't understand how he deals with me. I am so irrational. Anytime where the other person and again, we're looking for a pattern, not every once in a while, but if that's kind of how you how the person talks all the time, and that there is some type that they truly believe that there's something psychologically wrong with them. And then that the question becomes Well, okay, why is that something that they're doing to themselves or influence of their past, somebody taught them that when they were a child, and they've carried it over into adulthood, there might be nobody gaslighting them, they might be gaslighting themselves. Um, but if they do, if you do talk further if you're either in a employer employee relationship with this person, if you're a good friend of this person, or if you're a friend, but not a close friend, because sometimes that's a different dynamic, it's harder to say things to a friend who's not a close friend, then it's a matter of saying it's like, Okay, well is where does Where is this coming from and ask them? Why do you think that? Why do you think, why do you think you're nuts? Why do you think you're being hysterical?

Cheryl Stuller  30:19

Right? Ask those follow up questions, those are really, really important. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Um, feels that they can't do anything right. Kind of what we were just talking about as well. Makes excuses for the abusers behaviors. Mm hmm. And withholds info or lies to family or friends to protect the abuser.

Stasha Boyd  30:43

Yes, yeah. I think that's kind of a big one. And that happens in a lot of abusive cases. I think you've mentioned it earlier about how there might be a violent interaction or something. And the person will blame themselves like, Oh, no, no, no, he didn't, he didn't hit me, or the whole walking into a door phenomenon. This didn't happen. And it happens for a couple of reasons. Number one, they and I don't want say number one, because it could be any given order it's not a priority. But sometimes it's because the person does not want to invite additional abuse. They don't want to be the one that says to the intervener, or the parent, the friend or whoever, yeah, this guy did this, and then have that person treat them worse later. So have something worse happen as a response. But the other ones can be. And I think, Cheryl, you've talked a lot about this, and I get some more about this, where they are trying to protect the person. They and they have internalized this thought so much that they really, they really don't want anything bad to happen to that person. Because no, I love them. Right? 

Cheryl Stuller  31:45

And they love me. 

Stasha Boyd  31:46

Yeah. And I think that if you could talk to that a little bit, because I think you've seen that more, especially in like, parent child relationships where the child will continue to protect a parent who harms them, because they love that parent.

Cheryl Stuller  31:59

Well, it's different in a child, because that's all they know. And and if that's all they know, sometimes they don't know that that's not how you should be treated. I'd rather talk about, you know, adult relationships.

Stasha Boyd  32:16

How about when a person who, that's the way they were as a child that continues on because a lot of times those are the people that the the gaslighters and the abusers look for, they look for somebody who have that issue as a child, and they can just continue exploiting that into their adulthood.

Cheryl Stuller  32:30

Right, exactly. Um, going back to being in court and talking to people, there were very few times, and I'm going to speak to the woman side of it, because most of the time, not all, always, but most of the time it was the female that was the victim. Very few times did I get the complete and whole story the first time without digging into that scenario, and picking up on little things that they were saying that didn't ring true, you know? Like, well, he doesn't hit me often. And, and he only does that when he's so frustrated with me, you know? So taking on that blame themselves. So just talking more to them about, you know, what situations are you talking about? What is it that you think that you're doing that is causing this, and really just kind of probing that situation a little bit more. 

Stasha Boyd  33:37

And one of the things that's kind of this is actually, both a negotiation and a kind of a questioning strategy is sometimes you can repeat back to the person what they said, and then stop talking. So in the example you just gave, it's like it he only he only hits me, or let's say, he only acts this way, when he's really upset. So you're as a friend,

Cheryl Stuller  33:59

I've done a, b or c.

Stasha Boyd  34:02

And so you can say back to this, like, okay, so so when you've done a, b, or c, that's when this occurs.

Cheryl Stuller  34:09

Mm hmm. What do you see? 

Stasha Boyd  34:11

Or no, or just not? I don't even ask the extra question just yet. Just sit there and go, anything else? And just leave that open, and then just let the silence hang. Because if you let silence, hang in the air, nine times out of 10, the other person will say some more. 

Cheryl Stuller  34:25

You are very right about that. Yes. 

Stasha Boyd  34:27

Yeah. And so and I think that sometimes that helps. Because, especially if it's a relationship that you're having that you that you I mean, you're not a trained. Most people aren't trained counselors. You're just trying to help the person talk. You're trying to help them get something out or to so that you can understand the situation. And God knows I have this problem. Let them talk. Let them talk, encourage them to talk and then let them talk. 

Cheryl Stuller  34:54

Right, right. And then oftentimes You know, at the end of all of this, I would say, Okay, well, these are the resources available to you. And these are free to you, by the way. And, um, can I set you up with a phone number? Can I set you up with a meeting? and nine times out of 10? Oh, no, no, I don't I don't need that. I don't want that. Right, you know, so it was really hard to get somebody to follow up on the care after that, you know, what do you need in your life to? What can we do for you to help you get out of this situation. And oftentimes, because it was a financial goal this person had, or they had children together, or I don't have any place, I don't have another place to live. You know, it's often times not just about this person is abusing me, I need to get away. There's these other holds that financially childcare, job, vehicle, all of these different things factor in, so it's a really complex and really complicated thing to help somebody transition out of an abusive relationship.

Stasha Boyd  36:19

And again, if you're not, if you're not trained in this kind of stuff, but you're just a friend, and you want to help and you're not, you're not at the point where like handing out you know, here's the number for domestic violence, because you're not sure they're not sure they're not saying anything. One of the things you can do though, is when they when they kind of say two things, if you've kind of come to the realization yourself that this sounds like it's kind of nuts, when you're out with your friend, and they say something about like, Oh my gosh, I'm just such a scatterbrain or I'm just, you know, whatever, you can say, you know, I can I don't see that, you know, I okay, fine, but I don't see that I think you're fine. You can reaffirm, you can be that person that reaffirms or says, you know, it's like I have I lost my keys again, or whatever the thing is, you know, that there's usually a touchstone kind of thing, whether it's money, Oh, my gosh, she says, I'm so bad with money. Or though it was like No, really, why what can Is there something I can do to help you? Or I don't think you are some way to let them know that you do not think that they are mentally incompetent, and that you're listening to them. Mm hmm. Because everybody needs to have somebody who believes them.

Cheryl Stuller  37:22

Absolutely. And I and a follow up question to that, that I would say is if somebody says, Oh, I'm so scatterbrained, you know, he he fusses at me all the time because he says I'm so scatterbrained, and I would say, Well, what is he specifically saying to you, and do you feel like you're scatterbrained? What are you scatterbrained about? You know, I would just be asking those probing questions after somebody opens up to you like that. Yeah. And like you said, that was a very good point, and then allowing them to talk about it. Because usually people when there's silence, they want to fill that silence up. That's uncomfortable for people. Yeah. So yeah, taking that time to listen after you ask those questions.

Stasha Boyd  38:06

Yeah, and I was so uncomfortable. I just like jump in way ahead, so that we don't even have to get to the silence I just kind of but I think one of the things to understand, too cause there's also we talked a little bit I don't want to get out of this without topic. We talked a little about how there is gaslighting in politics right now. That's a huge thing. But there's also gaslighting in medicine. And this I don't think it's so intentional. I think this one is a little bit, but like a woman will go to an emergency room with concern with a pain. And the people will say, Oh, no, you're it's like, they won't believe that she's in as much pain as she is. They'll say she's just being hysterical. Doubly true if you happen to be African American, doubly true. It's like and a woman in medicine. Also in the legal system, there is one of the things that occurs. And we've talked about it a little bit in regards to some of the things that are in the news. But it's almost like a woman who is a victim of domestic violence or sexual assault or anything of that nature or even gaslighting. It's like they have to be the perfect victim in order to be taken seriously. If they're not likable, if they're not pretty, if they haven't done all the right things, if there's any, if there's any excuse that the legal system can give itself to not treat this person as a person. Nine times out of 10 they'll take it whether it's the police officers responding the the the legal system they get involved in, it's like oh, well, she was she does have a difficult personality. Oh yeah, she is kind of you know, you can see how she's kind of hard to, tough to deal with. Um, well, she was crying hysterically. What do you expect? It is a again, it's we look for the pattern of behavior.

Cheryl Stuller  39:50

Well look in our legal system. An assault on a female is a misdemeanor. You get harsher jail time for mistreating your dog than you do a domestic partner. So that has to change too. 

Stasha Boyd  40:06

I did not know that. I'm a hardcore animal person. So there I didn't I did not know that that was that. Is it a spouse or women in general, you know more about this than I do.

Cheryl Stuller  40:18

Um, it's a domestic partner, so somebody that you are in a relationship with is a misdemeanor. So it should change, the laws need to change as well. Yeah, absolutely. And more follow up needs to be done on these cases as well. Because a lot of times in court, I would see the same people coming back and back and back. And that's one of the reasons why I got out of that and got into Guardian Ad Litem, because, um, if the children were there, they were involved, and that impacted their life. I wanted to start helping them. You know, I'm like, oh, gosh, I'm seeing the same people nothing. It's, you know, it's rotate. It's a rotating door. So what can I do to be more helpful?

Stasha Boyd  41:11

Yeah. And I think that that is one of the things that I do I feel very strongly about is that, you know, basically, over the past 40 years or so, we have made every job of every previous institutional organization, on the shoulders of the police department. Do you have a? Is there somebody like wandering around your neighborhood acting kind of weird? Call the cops. Do you have, um, there's somebody like out in the yard out rocking on the street, and they don't think they belong there, call the cops. We've had a domestic disturbance, we hear yelling from a house, call the cops. But there's no, once the cops get there, they have one tool at their disposal, arrest and jail. That's all they can do, they can arrest somebody, and they can put somebody in jail, they have no other very, again, legally, they have very little other authority. I mean, they can like also issue citations. So there's really three, but it's like there needs to be another level of diversion. So them going like, okay, this is outside of my expertise, this is clearly a domestic assault situation, I need somebody here that is an expert on domestic disturbance and sexual assault, because the police cannot be an expert in everything. The same thing with drug and drug industry, and the person who's walking around acting crazy, could be a victim of domestic violence, or they could be having a drug reaction, or they could be mentally impaired or they could be autistic. Those are four different interventions. They can't all end in jail.

Cheryl Stuller  42:44

That's why I think it would be good to have a social worker with training like that, or a trained therapist, on the on the police force staff to help in those situations. Because we can't expect the police to know all and do all. And they have to follow the law. Right, you know, they only have what the law will allow them to do at the time. And, and especially in domestic situations, they can only react on what they are being told. So if the victims are not cooperating, you know, sometimes it's hard for them, their hands are tied.

Stasha Boyd  43:24

Right. And that's where I think that being able to have resources that can do those kind of follow ups. Because again, a lot of times you know, hey, I've I've been an insomniac and watch cops too I mean I've been there. But you go and you see these these these things, these horrible events occurring and they kind of walk away and goes like okay, I hope that worked that out. I'm like, Well, can somebody call the next day and see if they are working it out? Is there any kind of follow up? Can it be referred to a different agency and then the both of those people be told so and so will be calling within 24 hours you know, um, because the the walk around the block cooling off periods, you know, they got rid of those a while back like I said, because what was happening was officers were responding to a situation, they would separate the parties somebody would be walking around the block and they tell him to cool off, it's okay, everybody's cooled off. It's all fine now. Um, but there was no follow up. And we're getting a little bit off of gaslighting right now. But I think that's kind of like going back to that idea of I started with the idea of how legal systems can can gaslight people too. They're not as intentional about it as in they're trying to harm someone. I think what that case is, it's just a system, that that's how it works. It's just a grinder. And the, um, a lot of the institutionalized biases against both mental health, domestic violence, domestic abuse, women, especially African American women and women of color, especially, all gets rolled in together. And there's a big opportunity to gaslight somebody there because you're going, it's like okay, well, maybe it was me, maybe I did make a mistake in calling the cops because it can be so bad for other reasons.

Cheryl Stuller  45:07

Right, right. And a lot of times, you know, because of how things are set up with just what you said, the victim is re-victimized, so they don't want to reach out if they're not going to get help. Yeah, and, and productive help.

Stasha Boyd  45:25

And I want to do one more before we move on to like our final things like dealing with gaslighting. But gaslighting in the workplace, that occurs when you've got a toxic employee. And usually it's, again, a power dynamic, it's usually one person who is either trying to get the leg up on somebody else, or somebody in a supervisory position or a superior position to somebody else. But they'll do things like take credit for work. And when the when the person says something about it, it's like, No, no, you didn't do that. Or they will tell the other person Well, you didn't perform properly on your evaluation the guys, but here's what you wanted me to do. And here's where I did it. Oh, I never said that. That kind of gaslighting can still occur in the workplace. And again, the key to look for, two things is pattern, and do they benefit? How do they benefit? Now some people, they're just assholes. They don't benefit. They're just jerks. But if they're if it's a pattern of behavior, and they're benefiting in some way, even if that benefit is their own entertainment, that's gaslighting. 

Cheryl Stuller  46:27

Yes, and not not a healthy thing to be in even if it's in the workplace, not a healthy relationship to be in.

Stasha Boyd  46:34

Exactly. So the things that I, that I saw in the list, we've already covered some of them. Keeping a journal and again to remind our listeners is like, if you are trying to do that, the journal's for you. It's not to offer proof to somebody else, it's for you to help, you know, show yourself that you know, no, I'm seeing this correctly, I know what's up. Um, the other one was contact the National Domestic Violence because gaslighting is domestic violence. Um, the other two others that I saw that were really important I felt was one was tell as many people as possible. Once you start realizing this is happening, tell people, yeah, he keeps telling me that I'm losing my keys, I'm telling you I'm not losing my keys, tell them, tell them whatever you have to tell them. However this is occurring for you.

Cheryl Stuller  47:21

And make sure it's somebody that's in your tribe that's going to support you, though. You don't want to be telling somebody that's going to contribute to it. Like you said, with travel trip. I can't say that word, minimizing. Minimizing what you're feeling is also just re-victimizing you, you know,

Stasha Boyd  47:46

Yeah. And the other one that's kind of along that same lines is, if this person is gaslighting you is also trying to isolate you or separate you from someone, because sometimes they will if you have an ally, if you have a family member who truly loves you, and kind of thinks this is weird. If you have a friend that is the kind that would be like that's not right, dude, don't do that to her. They will try and isolate you from them. And if that's also part of the behavior, if you feel like you're being prevented from being around the people who have had your back in the past and would have your back in the future, do what you can to stay in touch with that person.

Cheryl Stuller  48:22

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Stasha Boyd  48:25

Yep. So those were my main things that was the main things that I saw, is there anything else we want to talk about with gaslighting? And I think it's like what's what's our final wrap up? What's if our listeners take away nothing else, Cheryl, what would you want them to take away?

Cheryl Stuller  48:39

Well, first of all, I want to say we are not experts in you know, abuse, domestic violence or anything like that. I do have experience in it. So always seek somebody out that is a professional in this area, if you have questions about it for yourself, or for someone that you care about, Okay, number one. We just wanted to highlight and bring this to everybody's attention. And I think what the Gaby Petito case is what kind of brought it up for me again, you know. What do I want people to take away from it? It is do not blame yourself. If you are in a relationship that this is happening, because oftentimes it's a subtle, slow, it's like somebody is grooming you, you know, um, it can happen to anybody, it doesn't matter your economic level, your education level, it can happen to anybody. The main thing I would say is to make sure that you are surrounding yourself with people that you trust, that will have your back, that can help you. Make sure you have a safety plan that's very, very, very important and reach out to professionals that can help you and give you the resources and the information that you need to validate what you're going through and then help you get out of it. 

Stasha Boyd  50:09

Right. And I'm going to double what Cheryl said we aren't, we're not experts in domestic violence. Again, Cheryl has some experience with it in the Guardian Ad Litem and the the domestic abuse situations, I have some experience in it in dealing with group dynamics and difficult people in the workplace, which is where my background a lot of education is. But what we also have is, we have both seen it and dealt with it in certain ways that are, I don't want to say that there, there, there are ways of solving things. But we've become attuned to looking for them. And I think one of the things that I do look for is again, starting starting with your with, with the kids and the teenagers that you know, encourage them to basically develop a little bullshit detector and just keep it on run. You know, if somebody starts if you start seeing that happen to you, you know, cultivate the ability to detect bullshit. If you see it happening to a friend of yours, friend of yours, call it out as bullshit, call it out as, you know, this person is being rude to you, and you don't deserve it. Let that be part of who you are. And then as a friend, like we said, mentioned very at the very top of this, don't think that everybody is strong enough to put up with that to deal to deal with everything all the time. Hey, you know you're tough. You can take this, you know, you're strong you can get out of this, it's just a matter of you would just say X, Y or Z you can solve this problem. No. Say how can I help you solve it? How can I help you? What can I do?

Cheryl Stuller  51:40

It's not you, how can I help you? I got you. Yeah, I've got you. It's a really important thing to say to somebody. And it's important to say, I don't know how to help you, but I will help you find out what you need to do. I will be right there with you.

Stasha Boyd  51:56

Yes. And then whatever you say you're going to do, do it.

Cheryl Stuller  52:00

Absolutely do it follow through with it. 

Stasha Boyd  52:03

Because I think that the only thing worse is saying Yes, honey, I've got my hand right out here for you and then the day they reach out you're not there. Right? That's the mistake. So, and a horrible one. So that was my my main thing. That pretty much wraps up gaslighting and I don't know where we are on time, but that's okay. Do we have a topic for next week?

Cheryl Stuller  52:23

Oh my gosh. We always do this at the end we need to get our shit together.

Stasha Boyd  52:30

I know and we have our outline just for this one very thing and whatever it is so Okay, ladies and everybody we will we will figure out what the next topic is. We will go from there. We will let y'all know or y'all can send us a topic but that's it.

Cheryl Stuller  52:44

Have a great week, everybody. 

Stasha Boyd  52:46

Have a great week, folks. Thank you all for listening. We love you so much. Thank you. Bye.